Australian Politics Forum - The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand

NorthOfNorth

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #120 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 9:27am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:53am:

North, no one's arguing that these societies aren't patriarchal - but lets not draw lazy conclusions from pictures we know nothing about - its intellectually dishonest. Your argument is tantamount to saying it simply doesn't matter if there's some misinterpretations here and there - since the overall theme still holds. Well it does matter. The truth matters, and calling people out on their porkies needs to be understood as vitally important in and of itself - even if its in relation to the "bad guys". If your concern is not detracting from these sorts of general "themes" - like women oppression in Islamic societies, then know that this sort of intellectual dishonesty only does those causes harm. You know, boy crying wolf sort of thing. If this were an isolated case then it wouldn't be an issue - but its not. You need to understand that the anti-Islam campaign is utterly dependent on lies, we see it literally on a daily basis here. So you need to acknowledge that as one of the key problems to this debate, and not just dismiss them with a casual "oh they're basically right in principle anyway".

Not sure that the 'anti-Islam campaign' is utterly dependent on lies. The current practise of Islam (lets say Islamism) is not compatible with Western secular culture... Even Muslims (such as Salman Rushdie, Tariq Ali et al) agree that this is now true... Yes, they have their theories on the cause, such as Saudi Arabian promotion of their particular brand of Islam &etc... And they often lament the loss of the practise of Islam of the past - i.e. when they were young... But they do agree that there is an 'existential crisis' occurring within Islamic societies (even if they believe that Islam itself is the victim and not the cause)...

But clearly this is not quite so new, given what restrictions Attaturk placed on Islamic practice in Turkey to elevate that then new nation into the 20th century.

The picture? Well, we can all draw our own conclusions on that - It wouldn't be up for any 'misinterpretation' if it was not fundamentally true that Islamic societies subjugate women. I'd have to say I've never been to a western culture-based gathering where anyone but children would be sitting on the floor.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand Reply #121 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 9:30am John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:50am: ok, carry on, lets talk about the dresses. What colour dress do you wear? Hmmm... Maybe Ted Kotcheff was right about Australian society of the 60's and 70's... You'd be 60-ish years old John?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49075 At my desk.	Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand Reply #122 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 10:28am Quote: Not sure that the 'anti-Islam campaign' is utterly dependent on lies. Gandalf has also claimed that Islamophobia is always about racism.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #123 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 11:04am

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 10:28am:

Quote:

Not sure that the 'anti-Islam campaign' is utterly dependent on lies.

Gandalf has also claimed that Islamophobia is always about racism.

Well, isn't it? If by Islamophobia you mean the irrational fear of Islamic society per se (and you extend the definition of racism to include discrimination against societal entities as opposed to referring exclusively to ethnicity).

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95896 Gender:	Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand Reply #124 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 11:34am freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:15am: Are you denying that you recently used quotes to deliberately misrepresent an exchange I had? Are you denying you’re racist? You’ve always avoided this question.
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John Smith

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #125 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 3:43pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 9:30am:

John Smith wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 7:50am:

ok, carry on, lets talk about the dresses. What colour dress do you wear?

Hmmm... Maybe Ted Kotcheff was right about Australian society of the 60's and 70's... You'd be 60-ish years old John?

not even close. 45

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I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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John Smith

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #126 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 3:50pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:47am:

Perhaps you should quote me then, rather than telling me what I 'really mean'.

or alternatively, you could tell us what you mean. What is it about that photo that you have a problem with? It's far simpler that way, we can then skip the bit where you tell us you didn't say it.

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:47am:

A yes or no will siffice John

I told you, I've dealt with that .

John Smith wrote on Jan 24^th, 2016 at 2:43pm:

In their culture I wouldn't be surprised to find that men prefer standing because they like to dominate over women. A trait not limited to muslims by the way. Sitting is always more submissive than standing.

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 8:47am:

It's good that you realise this. How about sexism?

How about it FD? Do you know any cultures with no sexism? Or is this where you pretend sexism is limited to Muslims?

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #127 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 4:17pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 9:27am:

Not sure that the 'anti-Islam campaign' is utterly dependent on lies. The current practise of Islam (lets say Islamism) is not compatible with Western secular culture... Even Muslims (such as Salman Rushdie, Tariq Ali et al) agree that this is now true... Yes, they have their theories on the cause, such as Saudi Arabian promotion of their particular brand of Islam &etc... And they often lament the loss of the practise of Islam of the past - i.e. when they were young... But they do agree that there is an 'existential crisis' occurring within Islamic societies (even if they believe that Islam itself is the victim and not the cause)...

But clearly this is not quite so new, given what restrictions Attaturk placed on Islamic practice in Turkey to elevate that then new nation into the 20th century.

Of course criticism of current Islamic culture need not be based on lies, there is more than enough ammunition of truth to use against it - no one's disputing that. And yet the simple fact of the matter is it is heavilly reliant on lies. Just look around you - lie after lie is posted here, the most recent was one I can remember was about muslims demanding the Swiss change their flag - turns out it was left wing atheists, and the muslims came out and rejected such a call. There are a thousand other legitimate stories the poster could have posted that incriminate muslims, but he chose the lie. Why? Of course the poster himself was not deliberately lying, but someone fed him that misinformation, and moreover the poster didn't bother to do a 5 second search to verify the information.

As I said, if this was an isolated incident there would be no issue - but it happens literally on a near daily basis. That is a problem - not least of all for people who really do have genuine concerns about the current state of Islamic culture. That includes you. It is also a problem having the likes of FD doing mental gymnastics to ignore or outright apologise for such lies, thus encouraging the continuation of the lying.

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 9:27am:

The picture? Well, we can all draw our own conclusions on that - It wouldn't be up for any 'misinterpretation' if it was not fundamentally true that Islamic societies subjugate women.

What nonsense. A misrepresentation is a misrepresentation. The lie that Hitler snubbed Jessie Owens because he was black isn't any less of a lie just because we know that Hitler definitely was racist. Truth matters - in and of itself.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #128 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 4:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 4:17pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 9:27am:

Not sure that the 'anti-Islam campaign' is utterly dependent on lies. The current practise of Islam (lets say Islamism) is not compatible with Western secular culture... Even Muslims (such as Salman Rushdie, Tariq Ali et al) agree that this is now true... Yes, they have their theories on the cause, such as Saudi Arabian promotion of their particular brand of Islam &etc... And they often lament the loss of the practise of Islam of the past - i.e. when they were young... But they do agree that there is an 'existential crisis' occurring within Islamic societies (even if they believe that Islam itself is the victim and not the cause)...

But clearly this is not quite so new, given what restrictions Attaturk placed on Islamic practice in Turkey to elevate that then new nation into the 20th century.

Of course criticism of current Islamic culture need not be based on lies, there is more than enough ammunition of truth to use against it - no one's disputing that. And yet the simple fact of the matter is it is heavilly reliant on lies. Just look around you - lie after lie is posted here, the most recent was one I can remember was about muslims demanding the Swiss change their flag - turns out it was left wing atheists, and the muslims came out and rejected such a call. There are a thousand other legitimate stories the poster could have posted that incriminate muslims, but he chose the lie. Why? Of course the poster himself was not deliberately lying, but someone fed him that misinformation, and moreover the poster didn't bother to do a 5 second search to verify the information.

As I said, if this was an isolated incident there would be no issue - but it happens literally on a near daily basis. That is a problem - not least of all for people who really do have genuine concerns about the current state of Islamic culture. That includes you. It is also a problem having the likes of FD doing mental gymnastics to ignore or outright apologise for such lies, thus encouraging the continuation of the lying.

Yes, point taken... But then even you resorted to gross exaggeration with your claim that the 'anti-Islam campaign' is utterly dependent on lies - although you now somewhat repudiate that with this post... But which post do you believe? By exaggeration aren't you also guilty of the same distortion of truth?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #129 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:17pm

You're nitpicking me on "heavily reliant" compared to "utterly dependent"? Its too reliant on lies - thats the only relevant point here. As someone who is genuinely concerned with how Islamism could impact our society - do you agree that the constant lies is doing your cause a great deal of harm?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #130 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:17pm:

You're nitpicking me on "heavily reliant" compared to "utterly dependent"?

I wouldn't call it nitpicking. 'Utterly dependent' implies lies are the only source of information... 'Heavily reliant' implies that while lies are used to promote the cause, so is truth to some degree. Even you accept that an anti-Islam cause could possibly be supported by truth alone.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:17pm:

Its too reliant on lies - thats the only relevant point here. As someone who is genuinely concerned with how Islamism could impact our society - do you agree that the constant lies is doing your cause a great deal of harm?

I think you need to take a philosophical point of view here. Is there any cause or issue of any significance that is not sometimes distorted by someone somewhere? And, let's face it, this forum is hardly a site used by 'absolute truth seekers'... Its usually a site for compulsive bitchery... I wouldn't take this site and its posters (or any similar site) that seriously... So, no, I'm not concerned nor influenced by most of the drivel posted here. I can see through it... Can't you?

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freediver

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #131 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:39pm

Quote:

or alternatively, you could tell us what you mean. What is it about that photo that you have a problem with?

The women sitting on the floor. Have you ever seen anything like that, outside of the middle east?

Quote:

How about it FD? Do you know any cultures with no sexism? Or is this where you pretend sexism is limited to Muslims?

You posted a photo of women in a letterbox outfit with an apparently ironic reference to sexist Muslims. Did you intend it as a symbol of the sexism inherent to Islam, or did you honestly think you were demonstrating liberal Muslims because they let their women sit in chairs?

Quote:

You're nitpicking me on "heavily reliant" compared to "utterly dependent"? Its too reliant on lies - thats the only relevant point here. As someone who is genuinely concerned with how Islamism could impact our society - do you agree that the constant lies is doing your cause a great deal of harm?

Good point Gandalf. When complaining about other people lying, it is perfectly reasonable to slip in a few gross exaggerations. You can also quote a question together with an answer to a completely different question, because it helps to 'clarify' your point.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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John Smith

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #132 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:45pm

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:39pm:

The women sitting on the floor. Have you ever seen anything like that, outside of the middle east?

yes, my wife was sitting on the floor earlier.

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:39pm:

You posted a photo of women in a letterbox outfit with an apparently ironic reference to sexist Muslims. Did you intend it as a symbol of the sexism inherent to Islam, or did you honestly think you were demonstrating liberal Muslims because they let their women sit in chairs?

ironic reference? perhaps you should quote me rather than tell me what I mean? Cheesy

I showed you a photo that showed the opposite of what you were trying to claim ... your obsession with their clothes is just your way of not having to deal with the real issue. And I've never claimed that Islam is sexist or liberal. Like every other religion, I believe it has elements of all traits found in humans.

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand Reply #133 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:53pm FD have you decided whether or not you are making a point about submissiveness in the picture yet? I was rather hoping we could get on to what, if anything, your point actually is. Or would you like to demand that I explain something that I can't see again?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: The boy accused of blasphemy who cut off his hand
Reply #134 - Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:56pm

Quote:

What is it about that photo that you have a problem with?

freediver wrote on Jan 26^th, 2016 at 5:39pm:

The women sitting on the floor.

Ah, maybe we're getting somewhere. Are you saying you have some kind of problem with the women sitting on the floor? Or is that being too misrepresentative of what you said? Would you call it "submissiveness"? - or are you still denying that you implied there was anything submissive about this photo?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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