Australian Politics Forum - The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates

Dnarever

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #15 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 9:41am

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2016 at 4:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 19^th, 2016 at 4:02pm:

Removing penalty rates is more likely to damage these industries as people walk away.

And then the industries will either pay more or shut up shop; welcome to the free market kids.

industries will either pay more

Who do they pay more to ?

Do they pay a higher hourly rate meaning that they are effectively paying non shift workers for working the higher value work that they are not doing ?

Shift penalties are actually very efficient as they target an equitable market rate to the target hours required.

Paying non shift workers more for not contributing to the higher value hours is inefficient and solves nothing.

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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #16 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 9:43am Come one Swag, write to Turnbull and gang and get them to make it a major election promise to remove penalty rates.
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #17 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 9:50am stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 9:43am: Come one Swag, write to Turnbull and gang and get them to make it a major election promise to remove penalty rates. .......ochlocracy wins
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Grappler Deep State Feller Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 85443 Always was always will be HOME Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #18 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:02am Quote: One should not assume the unemployed want to work weekends without penalty rates. No slave labour please. Imagine the rate of sickies on weekends when the footy is on... and the need to retain additional staff or pay them extra to come in.....
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Dnarever

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #19 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:09am

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:02am:

Quote:

One should not assume the unemployed want to work weekends without penalty rates. No slave labour please. Sad

Imagine the rate of sickies on weekends when the footy is on... and the need to retain additional staff or pay them extra to come in.....

I hear that this years grand final will be played on a Tuesday - apparently it is the same thing ?

Maybe they will then make it a Public Holiday for some strange reason ?

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Swagman

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #20 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 12:22pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:09am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:02am:

Quote:

One should not assume the unemployed want to work weekends without penalty rates. No slave labour please. Sad

Imagine the rate of sickies on weekends when the footy is on... and the need to retain additional staff or pay them extra to come in.....

I hear that this years grand final will be played on a Tuesday - apparently it is the same thing ?

Maybe they will then make it a Public Holiday for some strange reason ?

Do the players get penalty rates for playing on weekends?

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BigOl64

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #21 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 12:50pm

Dnarever wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 9:41am:

BigOl64 wrote on Feb 19^th, 2016 at 4:34pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 19^th, 2016 at 4:02pm:

Removing penalty rates is more likely to damage these industries as people walk away.

And then the industries will either pay more or shut up shop; welcome to the free market kids.

industries will either pay more

Who do they pay more to ?

Do they pay a higher hourly rate meaning that they are effectively paying non shift workers for working the higher value work that they are not doing ?

Shift penalties are actually very efficient as they target an equitable market rate to the target hours required.

Paying non shift workers more for not contributing to the higher value hours is inefficient and solves nothing.

They will pay more to anyone who can do entry level work, for the pay that is acceptable to both parties.

Try to not overthink too much, you'll cause yourself an injury.

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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #22 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 2:34pm Guess Swag doesn't get his wish then. the market rate for weekends is the current penalty rate. Not "how low will you go".
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #23 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 3:54pm stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 2:34pm: Guess Swag doesn't get his wish then. the market rate for weekends is the current penalty rate. Not "how low will you go". Yes, the same market OPEC creates for oil.....a fake one
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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #24 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 4:06pm Same as the free market for private health insurance. Government interference via rebates. Same for housing -> with CGt and negative gearing. Oh wait, if it isn't a benefit for you it's got to go....
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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #25 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:40pm stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 4:06pm: Same as the free market for private health insurance. Government interference via rebates. Same for housing -> with CGt and negative gearing. Please explain why these are the same? Good luck with that.
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stunspore

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #26 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:51pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:40pm:

stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 4:06pm:

Same as the free market for private health insurance. Government interference via rebates.
Same for housing -> with CGt and negative gearing.

Please explain why these are the same? Good luck with that. Cheesy

Sure. People look at the PHI without rebates and say, "hey it's too expensive, going to avoid it and find alternatives". Of course, with rebates it now looks ok - but that's because tax payers are subsidising and passing it directly to PHI companies for profit. Without rebates, PHI would have to market better and compete by lowering their prices since they can't rely on tax payers to stump up part of the costs.

As for houses. The combination of neg gearing and CGT discount means that you can afford to gear up to recover money invested. For home buyers needing a place to live, a home is primary somewhere to live. Any profit is something to consider at a far longer term than the average investor. The neg gearing allows either moving a person's taxable income to something where middle class welfare can happen, or recoup a sizeable income from house price rise with capital gains discount.
While the government supports these 2 tax advantages, house prices are subjected to a larger influence by investors and hence house prices are artificially higher from the higher demand. Not many countries have these types of tax advantages. Probably not even the U.S, which Swag wants Australia to become.

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Swagman

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #27 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 7:26pm

stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:51pm:

Sure. People look at the PHI without rebates and say, "hey it's too expensive, going to avoid it and find alternatives". Of course, with rebates it now looks ok - but that's because tax payers are subsidising and passing it directly to PHI companies for profit. Without rebates, PHI would have to market better and compete by lowering their prices since they can't rely on tax payers to stump up part of the costs.

Good try but it's not artificially setting a fixed price for PHI.

As for being subsidized by the taxpayer it's the opposite. A rebate is a return on tax already paid.

The more people privately insured the less pressure on the public system. Different issue entirely.

stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:51pm:

As for houses. The combination of neg gearing and CGT discount means that you can afford to gear up to recover money invested. For home buyers needing a place to live, a home is primary somewhere to live. Any profit is something to consider at a far longer term than the average investor. The neg gearing allows either moving a person's taxable income to something where middle class welfare can happen, or recoup a sizeable income from house price rise with capital gains discount.
While the government supports these 2 tax advantages, house prices are subjected to a larger influence by investors and hence house prices are artificially higher from the higher demand. Not many countries have these types of tax advantages. Probably not even the U.S, which Swag wants Australia to become.

I agree that property losses should not be allowed to be off set against wages and salaries income, unless perhaps it's for newly constructed properties.

Again it's a different issue entirely.

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Dnarever

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #28 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 8:59pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 7:26pm:

stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:51pm:

Sure. People look at the PHI without rebates and say, "hey it's too expensive, going to avoid it and find alternatives". Of course, with rebates it now looks ok - but that's because tax payers are subsidising and passing it directly to PHI companies for profit. Without rebates, PHI would have to market better and compete by lowering their prices since they can't rely on tax payers to stump up part of the costs.

Good try but it's not artificially setting a fixed price for PHI.

As for being subsidized by the taxpayer it's the opposite. A rebate is a return on tax already paid.

The more people privately insured the less pressure on the public system. Different issue entirely.

stunspore wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 5:51pm:

As for houses. The combination of neg gearing and CGT discount means that you can afford to gear up to recover money invested. For home buyers needing a place to live, a home is primary somewhere to live. Any profit is something to consider at a far longer term than the average investor. The neg gearing allows either moving a person's taxable income to something where middle class welfare can happen, or recoup a sizeable income from house price rise with capital gains discount.
While the government supports these 2 tax advantages, house prices are subjected to a larger influence by investors and hence house prices are artificially higher from the higher demand. Not many countries have these types of tax advantages. Probably not even the U.S, which Swag wants Australia to become.

I agree that property losses should not be allowed to be off set against wages and salaries income, unless perhaps it's for newly constructed properties.

Again it's a different issue entirely.

I agree that property losses should not be allowed to be off set against wages and salaries income, unless perhaps it's for newly constructed properties.

Why should any investment loss be offset against wages ?

But then why should any cost be off set at all business or private ?

Again it's a different issue entirely.

Looks like an identical issue to me ?

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Dnarever

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #29 - Feb 20^th, 2016 at 9:10pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 12:22pm:

Dnarever wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:09am:

Grappler Deep State Feller wrote on Feb 20^th, 2016 at 11:02am:

Quote:

One should not assume the unemployed want to work weekends without penalty rates. No slave labour please. Sad

Imagine the rate of sickies on weekends when the footy is on... and the need to retain additional staff or pay them extra to come in.....

I hear that this years grand final will be played on a Tuesday - apparently it is the same thing ?

Maybe they will then make it a Public Holiday for some strange reason ?

Do the players get penalty rates for playing on weekends?

They work on contracts where the negotiated deal provides a good rate for working 80 minutes a week.

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