Australian Politics Forum - The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates

greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139800 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #45 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:02pm Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 1:33pm: ..... will sell more product and naturally employ more people as it expands. No. They will make the existing employees work harder/longer hours.
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139800 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #46 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:05pm Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 1:33pm: .... Compulsory outside the market 'penalty' rates do the opposite. That is why they are a cause of unemployment. No. They don't cause unemployment.
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stunspore Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5097 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #47 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:16pm Swag has wonderful theories which sadly doesn't work out in real life. Either way, I hope libs take penalty rates to the election. Be a nice way to lose it.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #48 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:19pm

stunspore wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:16pm:

Swag has wonderful theories which sadly doesn't work out in real life.

That's correct.

It sounds OK on paper, however, in the real world it just doesn't work like that.

If checkout operators lose their penalty rates, Coles and Woolworths aren't going to hire more of them: they're just going to pocket the profits and carry on as usual.

stunspore wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:16pm:

Either way, I hope libs take penalty rates to the election. Be a nice way to lose it.

It would be a joy to watch.

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Swagman Gold Member Offline Beware of cheap imitations...... Posts: 15095 Illawarra NSW Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #49 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:29pm greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:19pm: It sounds OK on paper ....so you actually agree theoretically?
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139800 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #50 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:32pm Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:29pm: greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:19pm: It sounds OK on paper ....so you actually agree theoretically? Some of what you say is based on reasonable theory. However, "penalty rates are a cause of unemployment" is demonstrably wrong.
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Dnarever

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #51 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:38pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:29pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:19pm:

It sounds OK on paper

....so you actually agree theoretically?

What is the point of agreeing that people argue the theory when we all know that in practice the theory does not work.

The fact is that there is no connection between penalty rates and employment numbers.

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Swagman

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #52 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:14pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:32pm:

However, "penalty rates are a cause of unemployment" is demonstrably wrong.

......'a' cause, not 'the' cause.

For my statement to be "demonstrably wrong" you would have to prove that the increasing of any operating expense without a corresponding sales boost, would have no detrimental effect on a business and employment?

Dnarever wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:38pm:

The fact is that there is no connection between penalty rates and employment numbers.

Really? Why is it that over the last 40 years Australian manufacturing industry has been in decline from 14% to now under 7% of GDP?

Inability to compete. Penalty rates are part of this inability to compete. It's too expensive to manufacture product here in Aust because of uncompetitive IR which outside the market penalty rates are included. Sad

Source:

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #53 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:20pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:14pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:32pm:

However, "penalty rates are a cause of unemployment" is demonstrably wrong.

......'a' cause, not 'the' cause.

For my statement to be "demonstrably wrong" you would have to prove that the increasing of any operating expense without a corresponding sales boost, would have no detrimental effect on a business and employment?

Once again, you're looking at theory.

In the real world, in the workplace, penalty rates don't cause unemployment.

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double plus good Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5693 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #54 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:25pm I've thought about this. If an employer wants you to work on a sunday for no benefit then say you've got to go to church. They can't do anything about it.
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139800 Gender:	Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates Reply #55 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:28pm double plus good wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:25pm: I've thought about this. If an employer wants you to work on a sunday for no benefit then say you've got to go to church. They can't do anything about it. Depends on the Agreement/Award that they're covered by.
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Swagman

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #56 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:33pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:20pm:

Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:14pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:32pm:

However, "penalty rates are a cause of unemployment" is demonstrably wrong.

......'a' cause, not 'the' cause.

For my statement to be "demonstrably wrong" you would have to prove that the increasing of any operating expense without a corresponding sales boost, would have no detrimental effect on a business and employment?

Once again, you're looking at theory.

In the real world, in the workplace, penalty rates don't cause unemployment.

.....the decline in manufacturing jobs is not theory but fact.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #57 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:49pm

Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:33pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:20pm:

Swagman wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:14pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 2:32pm:

However, "penalty rates are a cause of unemployment" is demonstrably wrong.

......'a' cause, not 'the' cause.

For my statement to be "demonstrably wrong" you would have to prove that the increasing of any operating expense without a corresponding sales boost, would have no detrimental effect on a business and employment?

Once again, you're looking at theory.

In the real world, in the workplace, penalty rates don't cause unemployment.

.....the decline in manufacturing jobs is not theory but fact.

Let's stay on topic, shall we?

Penalty rates don't cause unemployment.

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Bam

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #58 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:50pm

What the penalty rate abolitionists simply do not get:

Many customers of businesses are only able to be customers because they receive penalty rates.

These businesses have to rely on other businesses not cutting penalty rates to keep their current level of custom. If this does not happen, the business won't make any more money even with reduced pay because their customers have less to spend.

Why? The economy acts like an ecosystem with its parts in balance. Abolishing penalty rates would disturb that balance. All it would do is stifle the economy.

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You are not entitled to your opinion. You are only entitled to hold opinions that you can defend through sound, reasoned argument.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: The Attack On Weekend Penalty Rates
Reply #59 - Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:55pm

Bam wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2016 at 3:50pm:

What the penalty rate abolitionists simply do not get:

Many customers of businesses are only able to be customers because they receive penalty rates.

These businesses have to rely on other businesses not cutting penalty rates to keep their current level of custom. If this does not happen, the business won't make any more money even with reduced pay because their customers have less to spend.

Why? The economy acts like an ecosystem with its parts in balance. Abolishing penalty rates would disturb that balance. All it would do is stifle the economy.

Exactly.

Abolishing penalty rates has the potential to increase unemployment.

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