Australian Politics Forum - Science shows isam is violent

Karnal

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #45 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:58pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:22pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:46pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:30pm:

Quote:

All monopolies are imposed. I can’t think of one that isn’t. Can you?

Plenty of industries are natural monopolies. The government tends to hang on to a lot of them - eg utilities, roads, airports etc. These would still be monopolies without government control. Some not - eg software. Microsoft windows is a good example. All you have to do is make software that does something unique and you have a monopoly. You can set the price to milk as much as possible from your customers, and anyone considering investing in setting up a competing product risks the liklihood that you will just set your price lower and send them bankrupt. Your marginal cost of production is close enough to zero.

Introductory microeconomic theory goes through all the causes of natural monopolies - often framed as the requirements or assumptions behind a free competitive market place.

Quote:

Governments in developing economies all impose monopolies. We did it, Uncle and Mother did it, and Suharto definitely did it.

When was the last time 'we' did it?

See above. Governments shape "natural" monopolies all the time. If I remember riggtly, it was a government contract thatgave Microsoft its leg up to establish a monopoly.

The most common way, however, is political donations and lobbying for legislation or contracts.

Look at the way Clubs Australia and the AHA kept their cushy pokie deal. Or the way Packer got the license for Lotto. Or the taxi industry fought to keep out Uber.

Only one of these is a real monopoly, but these are all ways people establish a hold over their market share.

Most of the time, it never makes the news.

Let me guess, the government bought a bunch of computers and/or software from microsoft, therefor their monopoly is unnatural?

Let me guess, you don’t have the ability to think creatively and respond (like G above), so you rely on textbook headings like Socialist to reference views you don’t even disagree with.

This is introductory textbook microeconomics Karnal. You appear to be completely unfamiliar with it. If it is something other than socialism that is motivating you, feel free to elaborate.

Can you explain how some government contract makes microsoft's monopoly unnatural?

Am I aware of it? You’ve even referenced the textbook.

Given you’ve read it, would you like to explain how governments influence Monopolies, using your example of Microsoft?

It’s in the textbook, so it shouldn’t be too hard.

When you’ve answered that, feel free to come up.with another question.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49407 At my desk.	Re: Science shows isam is violent Reply #46 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 9:41pm I think it is a natural monopoly, due mostly due to the low marginal cost of production, and hence relatively high entry cost that effectively becomes a barrier to entry. The government contracts are symptom of this, not a cause. Software is full of monopolies.
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Karnal

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #47 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 9:57pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

I think it is a natural monopoly, due mostly due to the low marginal cost of production, and hence relatively high entry cost that effectively becomes a barrier to entry. The government contracts are symptom of this, not a cause. Software is full of monopolies.

And I do too.

There. We agree.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49407 At my desk.	Re: Science shows isam is violent Reply #48 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:12pm Are there any Australian monopolies that you think are not natural? When was the last time our government created a monopoly?
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Karnal

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #49 - Feb 24^th, 2016 at 11:01pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:12pm:

Are there any Australian monopolies that you think are not natural?

When was the last time our government created a monopoly?

I’m not sure, but the first example that springs to mind is the NBN. But for me, the most glaring example was Keating’s pay TV policy that blocked the introduction of microwave TV and kept small players out in favour of Murdoch and Packer’s joint ventures.

This is just one industry: telecommunications. I’m sure that if we went down the list into agriculture (Graincorp), mining (the mining tax deal).and many others, we’d find the same political deals at the federal and state levels.

I’d say one reason Australia has changed so much since the 1980s is the introduction of competition, but only up to a point. A visit to other countries, even small countries like Israel or Singapore, and you see the variety of choices on offer. In the media, Australia is highly monopolised. There are few reasons for this other than political deals, along with a lack of investment. Countries (and investors) with more capital are prepared to take more risks, but this too has to do with government incentives.

Australia has liberalised a good deal since the slumber of its early years, but it’s hardly the Bangalore, Silicon Valley or Tel Aviv it has aspirations of becoming.

Or did during Turnbull’s brief Winter of discontent, before he gave way to realpolitik.

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freediver

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #50 - Feb 25^th, 2016 at 7:55pm

It is my understanding that government policy is actually preventing monopolisation of the media. There are specific policies in place. If they were not there, we would have fewer, larger players.

Regional news centres are being closed down. This is not because of government policy. It is because of a changing market.

All of this of course gets pretty meaningless when you throw the internet into the mix.

Back to Indonesia, is the current growth happening because of economic liberalisation, or despite it?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96507	Re: Science shows isam is violent Reply #51 - Feb 25^th, 2016 at 9:46pm I’m not sure of economic growth in Indonesia, FD, but I believe it’s driven by foreign investment and cheap labour. Is this liberalization or selling Indonesia out? The answer to this, I imagine, depends on where you stand.
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Soren

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #52 - Feb 26^th, 2016 at 8:23am

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:25pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:04pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:46pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:30pm:

Quote:

All monopolies are imposed. I can’t think of one that isn’t. Can you?

Plenty of industries are natural monopolies. The government tends to hang on to a lot of them - eg utilities, roads, airports etc. These would still be monopolies without government control. Some not - eg software. Microsoft windows is a good example. All you have to do is make software that does something unique and you have a monopoly. You can set the price to milk as much as possible from your customers, and anyone considering investing in setting up a competing product risks the liklihood that you will just set your price lower and send them bankrupt. Your marginal cost of production is close enough to zero.

Introductory microeconomic theory goes through all the causes of natural monopolies - often framed as the requirements or assumptions behind a free competitive market place.

Quote:

Governments in developing economies all impose monopolies. We did it, Uncle and Mother did it, and Suharto definitely did it.

When was the last time 'we' did it?

See above. Governments shape "natural" monopolies all the time. If I remember riggtly, it was a government contract thatgave Microsoft its leg up to establish a monopoly.

The most common way, however, is political donations and lobbying for legislation or contracts.

Look at the way Clubs Australia and the AHA kept their cushy pokie deal. Or the way Packer got the license for Lotto. Or the taxi industry fought to keep out Uber.

Only one of these is a real monopoly, but these are all ways people establish a hold over their market share.

Most of the time, it never makes the news.

What's Islam's and Muslims' monopoly??

Not to be criticised or mocked - or there will be blood?

Economy of violence and intimidation, innit??

Exactly. Them, and your good self. No one has the right to not be offended, no?

Except yourself, dear chap.

Don't be such a Greens_Win queen, PB.

When was the last time I shot up your premises for criticisng me?

You are supposed to be intelligent (you are as thick as any number of fire doors but other fire doors think you are the best of their bunch -(discuss, if you must)) - so don't act like some knuckle dragging, bearded, spittle-spewing Muslim prog. You want to, you can't resist - but try anyway.

Sorry, dear boy, I’m.confused.

Is this you saying you do have the right to be offended?

No, it's my way of telling you not to be a Greens_Win queen, PB.

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Karnal

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #53 - Feb 26^th, 2016 at 5:23pm

Soren wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:25pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:11pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 8:04pm:

Soren wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:55pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:46pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 7:30pm:

Quote:

All monopolies are imposed. I can’t think of one that isn’t. Can you?

Plenty of industries are natural monopolies. The government tends to hang on to a lot of them - eg utilities, roads, airports etc. These would still be monopolies without government control. Some not - eg software. Microsoft windows is a good example. All you have to do is make software that does something unique and you have a monopoly. You can set the price to milk as much as possible from your customers, and anyone considering investing in setting up a competing product risks the liklihood that you will just set your price lower and send them bankrupt. Your marginal cost of production is close enough to zero.

Introductory microeconomic theory goes through all the causes of natural monopolies - often framed as the requirements or assumptions behind a free competitive market place.

Quote:

Governments in developing economies all impose monopolies. We did it, Uncle and Mother did it, and Suharto definitely did it.

When was the last time 'we' did it?

See above. Governments shape "natural" monopolies all the time. If I remember riggtly, it was a government contract thatgave Microsoft its leg up to establish a monopoly.

The most common way, however, is political donations and lobbying for legislation or contracts.

Look at the way Clubs Australia and the AHA kept their cushy pokie deal. Or the way Packer got the license for Lotto. Or the taxi industry fought to keep out Uber.

Only one of these is a real monopoly, but these are all ways people establish a hold over their market share.

Most of the time, it never makes the news.

What's Islam's and Muslims' monopoly??

Not to be criticised or mocked - or there will be blood?

Economy of violence and intimidation, innit??

Exactly. Them, and your good self. No one has the right to not be offended, no?

Except yourself, dear chap.

Don't be such a Greens_Win queen, PB.

When was the last time I shot up your premises for criticisng me?

You are supposed to be intelligent (you are as thick as any number of fire doors but other fire doors think you are the best of their bunch -(discuss, if you must)) - so don't act like some knuckle dragging, bearded, spittle-spewing Muslim prog. You want to, you can't resist - but try anyway.

Sorry, dear boy, I’m.confused.

Is this you saying you do have the right to be offended?

No, it's my way of telling you not to be a Greens_Win queen, PB.

Offends you, does it?

There there. We understand.

You may not agree with what we have to say, but you’ll fight to the death for your right to be offended by it.

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freediver

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #54 - Feb 26^th, 2016 at 7:25pm

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

I’m not sure of economic growth in Indonesia, FD, but I believe it’s driven by foreign investment and cheap labour.

Is this liberalization or selling Indonesia out?

The answer to this, I imagine, depends on where you stand.

I doubt the Indonesians are complaining. I think only rich bogans get wound up about that sort of thing.

So basically this growth that Gandalf thinks will make them an economic superpower is driven primarily by the bad condition of their economy, making their labour cheap on the international market.

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Karnal

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #55 - Feb 26^th, 2016 at 10:42pm

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

I’m not sure of economic growth in Indonesia, FD, but I believe it’s driven by foreign investment and cheap labour.

Is this liberalization or selling Indonesia out?

The answer to this, I imagine, depends on where you stand.

I doubt the Indonesians are complaining. I think only rich bogans get wound up about that sort of thing.

So basically this growth that Gandalf thinks will make them an economic superpower is driven primarily by the bad condition of their economy, making their labour cheap on the international market.

They aren’t complaining?

If I may ask, FD, when did you last visit Indonesia? Read an article? View a news report? Dare I say, speak to an Indonesian about Indonesian politics?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

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ian

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #56 - Feb 26^th, 2016 at 10:47pm

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

I’m not sure of economic growth in Indonesia, FD, but I believe it’s driven by foreign investment and cheap labour.

Is this liberalization or selling Indonesia out?

The answer to this, I imagine, depends on where you stand.

I doubt the Indonesians are complaining. I

No, they generally arent. The Suharto years kept the elite in riches but everyone else stayed poor The new middle class are quite happy to have more money and a higher standard of living regardless of where its coming from. Amazingly enough, just like most Australians.

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Karnal

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #57 - Feb 26^th, 2016 at 11:28pm

ian wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 10:47pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

I’m not sure of economic growth in Indonesia, FD, but I believe it’s driven by foreign investment and cheap labour.

Is this liberalization or selling Indonesia out?

The answer to this, I imagine, depends on where you stand.

I doubt the Indonesians are complaining. I

No, they generally arent. The Suharto years kept the elite in riches but everyone else stayed poor The new middle class are quite happy to have more money and a higher standard of living regardless of where its coming from. Amazingly enough, just like most Australians.

The Indonesians have come to distrust their politicians more than ever before. Social media, cable TV and a much more critical press have seen a major shift in politics. There is a huge popular discontent - nothing like the Asian Financial Crisis, but a seething resentment towards the elites.

In some ways, this has been there since Sukarno. It’s quite old. In others, it’s finding new expression. Indonesia is developing rapidly, and this is never easy. Millions are left behind, and millions regret the loss of a simpler life that,in reality may have never existed, but they dwell on like some painful memory.

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« Last Edit: Feb 26^th, 2016 at 11:34pm by Karnal »

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ian

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #58 - Feb 27^th, 2016 at 12:07am

Karnal wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 11:28pm:

ian wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 10:47pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 26^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Feb 25^th, 2016 at 9:46pm:

I’m not sure of economic growth in Indonesia, FD, but I believe it’s driven by foreign investment and cheap labour.

Is this liberalization or selling Indonesia out?

The answer to this, I imagine, depends on where you stand.

I doubt the Indonesians are complaining. I

No, they generally arent. The Suharto years kept the elite in riches but everyone else stayed poor The new middle class are quite happy to have more money and a higher standard of living regardless of where its coming from. Amazingly enough, just like most Australians.

The Indonesians have come to distrust their politicians more than ever before. Social media, cable TV and a much more critical press have seen a major shift in politics. There is a huge popular discontent - nothing like the Asian Financial Crisis, but a seething resentment towards the elites.

In some ways, this has been there since Sukarno. It’s quite old. In others, it’s finding new expression. Indonesia is developing rapidly, and this is never easy. Millions are left behind, and millions regret the loss of a simpler life that,in reality may have never existed, but they dwell on like some painful memory.

nah, bullsh!te. this sounds like something g you would want to believe.

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freediver

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Re: Science shows isam is violent
Reply #59 - Apr 23^rd, 2016 at 4:04pm

freediver wrote on Feb 24^th, 2016 at 10:43am:

This is true, but I have never argued that Islam conquered the far eastern extent of it's coverage by following Muhammed's lead. It is kind of difficult to argue that Islam in the east was more tolerant and peaceful at first and then became more conservative and traditional with time while also arguing it arrived by the sword, don't you think Gandalf?

It was the Sufi's who originally brought Islam to Indonesia. Traditional Islam eventually followed. I hope you appreciate the irony here Gandalf.

Sufi Muslims Feel the Heat of Indonesia’s Rising Intolerance

https://www.hrw.org/news/2013/08/15/sufi-muslims-feel-heat-indonesias-rising-intolerance

The plight of the Al-Mujahadah Foundation madrassa in southern Aceh illustrates the perils of rising religious intolerance for Indonesia’s religious minorities. The school, a private institution that instructed dozens of students 8 to 25 years of age in the principles of Sufism — devotion to more mystical interpretations of Islam — lost its dormitory on July 5 due to an apparent arson attack. Less than a month later, on Aug. 1, the wall surrounding the school compound was destroyed in what the school authorities believe was an act of vandalism. Police are investigating the alleged arson attack, but say the school’s wall collapsed due to faulty construction.

Suspicions that the school has been singled out for harassment and intimidation aren’t unwarranted. In February, Aceh’s Ulama Consultative Council (MPU), a government entity that advises the government on Islamic affairs, demanded the school’s closure on the basis that it was “strange” and its teachings “false and misleading.”

Looks like a microcosm of Islam's current spread into the far more powerful non-Muslim nations don't you think?

I have updated the wiki article on faith ratchets with this example.

http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Faith_Ratchet#Aceh

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