Australian Politics Forum - An election which will not resolve anything

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75927 Gender:	Re: An election which will not resolve anything Reply #15 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:40am Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:39am: but has a majority in the Senate, won't happen
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Armchair_Politician Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26681 Gender:	Re: An election which will not resolve anything Reply #16 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:47am John Smith wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:40am: Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:39am: but has a majority in the Senate, won't happen There's a greater chance of it happening now the new Senate laws have been passed.
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John Smith

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #17 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:48am

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:47am:

John Smith wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:40am:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:39am:

but has a majority in the Senate,

won't happen

There's a greater chance of it happening now the new Senate laws have been passed.

it still won't happen

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longweekend58 Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 45675 Gender:	Re: An election which will not resolve anything Reply #18 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 12:01pm senate majorities are very rare and occur as a result of sustained dominance of one party. we dont have that. we will end up with a few less crossbenchers and the spoils split among the majors.
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Bam

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #19 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 1:18pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:39am:

Bam wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:32am:

Turnbull's popularity is past its peak and has dropped sharply since the start of the year. It's not doing so for no reason.

If current opinion polling is replicated at the election, the Turnbull government will be returned with a very small majority of about 3 seats. Do we really want a government with such a small majority that is plagued by infighting until the following election?

If the Turnbull government is returned, it may well turn out to be a government that won one election too many. Such governments end up getting obliterated at the following election. Iemma's win in NSW in 2008 was one example. If this troubled government was to win with a small majority and then limp on for another three years, the Liberals could receive one of their heaviest ever election defeats at the next election and be likely to spend at least three terms in Opposition, perhaps more.

This election could well be a good one for the Coalition to lose.

If Turnbull only has a majority of one seat but has a majority in the Senate, it won't matter in the House of Representatives. He'll be able to govern without the spineless antics of the micro parties and independents to stop him.

In your dreams. If the Coalition have a majority of one seat in the HoR (76 seats) it is impossible for them to have a Senate majority. It would require the Coalition winning a primary vote in the Senate that's about 10% higher than the primary vote in the lower House.

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Bam

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #20 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 1:20pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 12:01pm:

senate majorities are very rare and occur as a result of sustained dominance of one party. we dont have that. we will end up with a few less crossbenchers and the spoils split among the majors.

Correct. These also occur after convincing election wins (eg: 1977, 2004), not elections won with wafer-thin majorities.

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Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #21 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 4:06pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:38am:

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Which ever side of our two-party (one party in disguise) government 'wins' - we the people will be the losers one way or the other, and always will be until a new party with a genuine interest in working for the electors holds power.

Again I will not be voting for either of them, nor for their sellout Greens running dog.

So you'll vote for an inconsequential independent who will serve little or no purpose in a revamped Senate following changes to electoral laws recently passed to negate the power of independents and micro-parties? Great choice - if you want your vote to not count.

Nothing inconsequential about an elected senator....... if one such holds the balance of power and refuses bad legislation... that proves the point of electing independents and minor parties....

You need to break clear of the delusion that rejecting poor governance is somehow a sin on the part of Independents etc....

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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Armchair_Politician

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #22 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 4:10pm

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 4:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:38am:

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Which ever side of our two-party (one party in disguise) government 'wins' - we the people will be the losers one way or the other, and always will be until a new party with a genuine interest in working for the electors holds power.

Again I will not be voting for either of them, nor for their sellout Greens running dog.

So you'll vote for an inconsequential independent who will serve little or no purpose in a revamped Senate following changes to electoral laws recently passed to negate the power of independents and micro-parties? Great choice - if you want your vote to not count.

Nothing inconsequential about an elected senator....... if one such holds the balance of power and refuses bad legislation... that proves the point of electing independents and minor parties....

You need to break clear of the delusion that rejecting poor governance is somehow a sin on the part of Independents etc....

Yet the ABCC isn't bad legislation, it's just bad for Unions because it'll hold them accountable and that makes it bad for Labor because the Unions are unhappy. Blocking that legislation isn't rejecting poor governance, it's simply desperation from the Union-affiliated ALP and spite from the Coalition-hating Senators such as Lambie, Lazarus and Muir, who was elected on less than one half of one percent of the vote due to preferences. You can't get more inconsequential than that!

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 75927 Gender:	Re: An election which will not resolve anything Reply #23 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:33pm Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 4:10pm: Yet the ABCC isn't bad legislation why? cause the liberal party said so? they've already proven they haven't got a clue ... that's why you like them
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longweekend58

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #24 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:43pm

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 4:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:38am:

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Which ever side of our two-party (one party in disguise) government 'wins' - we the people will be the losers one way or the other, and always will be until a new party with a genuine interest in working for the electors holds power.

Again I will not be voting for either of them, nor for their sellout Greens running dog.

So you'll vote for an inconsequential independent who will serve little or no purpose in a revamped Senate following changes to electoral laws recently passed to negate the power of independents and micro-parties? Great choice - if you want your vote to not count.

Nothing inconsequential about an elected senator....... if one such holds the balance of power and refuses bad legislation... that proves the point of electing independents and minor parties....

You need to break clear of the delusion that rejecting poor governance is somehow a sin on the part of Independents etc....

you might want to try and define 'bad legislation'. If you mean it opposes their political persuasion then that doesnt make it bad at all.

I said if before, but your concept of democracy is quite flawed. democracy is supposed to allow the MAJORITY to rule while you seem to think it is okay for one senator, representing nobody in particular to accept or reject legislation as he feels like on the day.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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John Smith

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #25 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:45pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

. democracy is supposed to allow the MAJORITY to rule while you seem to think it is okay for one senator, representing nobody in particular to accept or reject legislation as he feels like on the day.

you should have considered that before objecting the the ETS

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Aussie

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #26 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:46pm

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:39am:

Bam wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:32am:

Turnbull's popularity is past its peak and has dropped sharply since the start of the year. It's not doing so for no reason.

If current opinion polling is replicated at the election, the Turnbull government will be returned with a very small majority of about 3 seats. Do we really want a government with such a small majority that is plagued by infighting until the following election?

If the Turnbull government is returned, it may well turn out to be a government that won one election too many. Such governments end up getting obliterated at the following election. Iemma's win in NSW in 2008 was one example. If this troubled government was to win with a small majority and then limp on for another three years, the Liberals could receive one of their heaviest ever election defeats at the next election and be likely to spend at least three terms in Opposition, perhaps more.

This election could well be a good one for the Coalition to lose.

If Turnbull only has a majority of one seat but has a majority in the Senate, it won't matter in the House of Representatives. He'll be able to govern without the spineless antics of the micro parties and independents to stop him.

The chances of Turnbull having a one seat majority in the HoR and control of the Senate is non-existent.

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longweekend58

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #27 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 6:05pm

Aussie wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:46pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:39am:

Bam wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 11:32am:

Turnbull's popularity is past its peak and has dropped sharply since the start of the year. It's not doing so for no reason.

If current opinion polling is replicated at the election, the Turnbull government will be returned with a very small majority of about 3 seats. Do we really want a government with such a small majority that is plagued by infighting until the following election?

If the Turnbull government is returned, it may well turn out to be a government that won one election too many. Such governments end up getting obliterated at the following election. Iemma's win in NSW in 2008 was one example. If this troubled government was to win with a small majority and then limp on for another three years, the Liberals could receive one of their heaviest ever election defeats at the next election and be likely to spend at least three terms in Opposition, perhaps more.

This election could well be a good one for the Coalition to lose.

If Turnbull only has a majority of one seat but has a majority in the Senate, it won't matter in the House of Representatives. He'll be able to govern without the spineless antics of the micro parties and independents to stop him.

The chances of Turnbull having a one seat majority in the HoR and control of the Senate is non-existent.

the point he was making (poorly) is that if you have control of the senate then that is all that matters. if your majority is 1 or 39, the results are still the same.

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AUSSIE: "Speaking for myself, I could not care less about 298 human beings having their life snuffed out in a nano-second, or what impact that loss has on Members of their family, their parents..."

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Aussie Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 38973 Gender:	Re: An election which will not resolve anything Reply #28 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 6:12pm Quote: the point he was making (poorly) is that if you have control of the senate then that is all that matters. if your majority is 1 or 39, the results are still the same.
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Grappler Truth Teller

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Re: An election which will not resolve anything
Reply #29 - Mar 28^th, 2016 at 6:34pm

longweekend58 wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 5:43pm:

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 4:06pm:

Armchair_Politician wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:38am:

Grappler Truth Teller wrote on Mar 28^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Which ever side of our two-party (one party in disguise) government 'wins' - we the people will be the losers one way or the other, and always will be until a new party with a genuine interest in working for the electors holds power.

Again I will not be voting for either of them, nor for their sellout Greens running dog.

So you'll vote for an inconsequential independent who will serve little or no purpose in a revamped Senate following changes to electoral laws recently passed to negate the power of independents and micro-parties? Great choice - if you want your vote to not count.

Nothing inconsequential about an elected senator....... if one such holds the balance of power and refuses bad legislation... that proves the point of electing independents and minor parties....

You need to break clear of the delusion that rejecting poor governance is somehow a sin on the part of Independents etc....

you might want to try and define 'bad legislation'. If you mean it opposes their political persuasion then that doesnt make it bad at all.

I said if before, but your concept of democracy is quite flawed. democracy is supposed to allow the MAJORITY to rule while you seem to think it is okay for one senator, representing nobody in particular to accept or reject legislation as he feels like on the day.

Majority to rule does not mean majority to dictate.. thanks for coming. It is YOUR concept of democracy that is flawed. No mandate, even if accepted to be such, translates to tyranny and dictatorship of the elected majority government.....

To prevent such a thing is precisely why we have democracy......

If it opposes their political persuasion..... they are there at the will of the people according to the rules.... the ONLY question relevant about the current changes is whether or not it accords with the will of the people and renders just and proper democracy through the ballot box. Weighting the voting method so as to ensure you control both houses is an act of some petty Third World dictator.... and is emphatically anti-democratic....

'Whenever we leave principles and clear positive laws we are soon lost in the wild regions of imagination and possibility where arbitrary power sits upon her brazen throne and governs with an iron scepter' .

"Power always thinks it has a great soul and vast views beyond the comprehension of the weak, and that it is doing God's service when it is violating all His laws."

- John Adams, 2nd President of the United States.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
― John Adams

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