Australian Politics Forum - Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?

GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #15 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 5:59am

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:59am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 9:59pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 9:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 8:55pm:

The Saudis follow the Wahabist school, which is actually a minority sect in sunni Islam. The wahabists were an irrelevancy in the Islamic world until they were funded and empowered by the British who used them as a tool against the Ottomans. Then they discovered oil, and they used the petro-dollars to propagate their extremist version of Islam, as well as spawn a new generation of rich and powerful jihadists like bin Laden.

Yes. I get all that.
If you could be bothered sifting thru all my posts you'd see my idea for a new world order would begin with independence from oil and neutering KSA.

But it's 2016 and Islam is lerching towards Islamism.

So when I see stuff like this and Im told bugger off you Islamophobe can you not understand the frustration?

http://m.smh.com.au/national/wikileaks-saudi-cables-reveal-secret-saudi-government-influence-in-australia-20150620-ght4kp.html

The way I see it, so much of all this is determined by geo-politics. Saudi influence - and with it the rise of Islamism in the middle east (and to a lesser extent across the muslim world), was instigated by dramatic geo-political changes: first the fall of the Ottoman hegemony, and then the decline of western imperialism. The arab spring was another major geo-political change that emboldened the Islamists even more. And then throw into the mix the catastrophic political vacuum left by the invasion of Iraq that directly led to the rise of ISIS.

What I'm saying is, everything to do with Islamism in the muslim world comes down to geo-political influences. It rose only because of changing geo-political factors, and if it falls, it will be because of geo-political factors. Actual philosophical and theological developments in the Islamic religion don't even rate a mention. All the different ideas are already there: extreme, moderate, reformist, conservative - you name it, they all exist, and any of them can become dominant given the right conditions. And the only thing that determines which particular ideology dominates and prevails is mundane and wholly secular political issues. And on that score, my sense is that we are on the verge of another tectonic shift in Islam - brought about by the fact that the petro-dollar economic bonanza and associated western protection racket enjoyed by the Saudis is coming to a shuddering halt. It was revealed recently that the Saudis can only balance their budget with an oil price of around $100 a barrel. For the last 6 months or so it has been around $30-$40. The Saudis have been panicking - ramping up production (and in so doing so putting even more downward pressure on prices) in a desperate attempt to push the North American shale operators out of the market, in the hope that this will eventually enable prices to go back up to where they want it. How long can this brinkmanship go? Not long methinks. Moreover their geo-political rivals - the Iranians, have just stabilized relations with the US, forging a new historic economic agreement that effectively leaves the Saudis out in the cold. Its not hard to see the writing on the wall: economic imperatives will finally merge with a rediscovered moral compass. Saudi Arabia now executes more of its citizens than any other country - beheading people for such crimes as witchcraft and abused women and/or foreign workers defending themselves. Why would the US continue awkwardly pretending that Saudi Arabia isn't actually ISIS on steroids - when there is less and less economic incentive to do so? The US's logistical support for the Saudis current hospital and school bomb-fest in Yemen could well be the last hurrah for this unholy alliance.

Long story short, I think Saudi Arabia is about to enter a period of deep economic decline - and with it, the decline of the main source of middle -eastern Islamism. However it could well get worse before it gets better: as extremist as the current Saudi regime is, sadly, the current alternatives are all much worse. There simply is no moderate or progressive opposition in Saudi politics - so if the regime falls, it will inevitably be replaced by something much worse. And the new 'even-whackier-than-the-other-guys' regime will doubtless use whats left of Saudi wealth to drag as much as it can of the muslim world into the abyss. But it won't last for long, and eventually a non-Saudi/Wahabist Islam will have its opportunity to dominate, and things will improve.

Good post - I missed this. I’d like to think the Saudies are declining, but it seems that the brand they helped to inspire will remain. ISIS, it would seem, are worse than the Saudis, at least in their overt aggression and suicidal ideation.

I think they're the same actually.
Isis is Saudi without bothering about the veneer of respectability

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #16 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 8:30am I don't see the Saudis with much veneer of respectability. Its just that its easy to have your atrocities fly under the radar when everyone's pretending nothing's wrong, if not actively supporting you.
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Frank

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #17 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:27am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 8:55pm:

The Saudis follow the Wahabist school, which is actually a minority sect in sunni Islam. The wahabists were an irrelevancy in the Islamic world until they were funded and empowered by the British who used them as a tool against the Ottomans. Then they discovered oil, and they used the petro-dollars to propagate their extremist version of Islam, as well as spawn a new generation of rich and powerful jihadists like bin Laden.

So they ARE Sunni Islamic, aren't they?

They are not anything else. They are Sunni Muslims. Wahabi just means VERY, VERY Sunni Muslim.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #18 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:07am Most sunnis reject the wahabist ideology. Make what you will of that.
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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #19 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:13am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 9:59pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 9:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 8:55pm:

The Saudis follow the Wahabist school, which is actually a minority sect in sunni Islam. The wahabists were an irrelevancy in the Islamic world until they were funded and empowered by the British who used them as a tool against the Ottomans. Then they discovered oil, and they used the petro-dollars to propagate their extremist version of Islam, as well as spawn a new generation of rich and powerful jihadists like bin Laden.

Yes. I get all that.
If you could be bothered sifting thru all my posts you'd see my idea for a new world order would begin with independence from oil and neutering KSA.

But it's 2016 and Islam is lerching towards Islamism.

So when I see stuff like this and Im told bugger off you Islamophobe can you not understand the frustration?

http://m.smh.com.au/national/wikileaks-saudi-cables-reveal-secret-saudi-government-influence-in-australia-20150620-ght4kp.html

The way I see it, so much of all this is determined by geo-politics. Saudi influence - and with it the rise of Islamism in the middle east (and to a lesser extent across the muslim world), was instigated by dramatic geo-political changes: first the fall of the Ottoman hegemony, and then the decline of western imperialism. The arab spring was another major geo-political change that emboldened the Islamists even more. And then throw into the mix the catastrophic political vacuum left by the invasion of Iraq that directly led to the rise of ISIS.

What I'm saying is, everything to do with Islamism in the muslim world comes down to geo-political influences. It rose only because of changing geo-political factors, and if it falls, it will be because of geo-political factors. Actual philosophical and theological developments in the Islamic religion don't even rate a mention. All the different ideas are already there: extreme, moderate, reformist, conservative - you name it, they all exist, and any of them can become dominant given the right conditions. And the only thing that determines which particular ideology dominates and prevails is mundane and wholly secular political issues. And on that score, my sense is that we are on the verge of another tectonic shift in Islam - brought about by the fact that the petro-dollar economic bonanza and associated western protection racket enjoyed by the Saudis is coming to a shuddering halt. It was revealed recently that the Saudis can only balance their budget with an oil price of around $100 a barrel. For the last 6 months or so it has been around $30-$40. The Saudis have been panicking - ramping up production (and in so doing so putting even more downward pressure on prices) in a desperate attempt to push the North American shale operators out of the market, in the hope that this will eventually enable prices to go back up to where they want it. How long can this brinkmanship go? Not long methinks. Moreover their geo-political rivals - the Iranians, have just stabilized relations with the US, forging a new historic economic agreement that effectively leaves the Saudis out in the cold. Its not hard to see the writing on the wall: economic imperatives will finally merge with a rediscovered moral compass. Saudi Arabia now executes more of its citizens than any other country - beheading people for such crimes as witchcraft and abused women and/or foreign workers defending themselves. Why would the US continue awkwardly pretending that Saudi Arabia isn't actually ISIS on steroids - when there is less and less economic incentive to do so? The US's logistical support for the Saudis current hospital and school bomb-fest in Yemen could well be the last hurrah for this unholy alliance.

Long story short, I think Saudi Arabia is about to enter a period of deep economic decline - and with it, the decline of the main source of middle -eastern Islamism. However it could well get worse before it gets better: as extremist as the current Saudi regime is, sadly, the current alternatives are all much worse. There simply is no moderate or progressive opposition in Saudi politics - so if the regime falls, it will inevitably be replaced by something much worse. And the new 'even-whackier-than-the-other-guys' regime will doubtless use whats left of Saudi wealth to drag as much as it can of the muslim world into the abyss. But it won't last for long, and eventually a non-Saudi/Wahabist Islam will have its opportunity to dominate, and things will improve.

Thanks for the write up.
I agree with the nuts and bolts of this.

I'm also pretty skeptical that the demise of KSA would usher in the good times.

I can only see utter catastrophe that would result from the likelihood of the Iran Saudi war moving from a proxy to direct. Maybe a few green shoots would arise from the scorched earth that would leave behind.

This I see as the main reason why USA/Iran relations are heading towards normalization. They don't want Russia to be Iran's only friend.

Good segue to Iran actually, they're batsh!t crazy in their own right and we can't blame wahhabism.

I totally get why they booted the Shah. He needed to go and every day Iranians are probably better for it, but Iran could have been such an interesting place if it was a secular revolution.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #20 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:14am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 8:30am:

I don't see the Saudis with much veneer of respectability.

Its just that its easy to have your atrocities fly under the radar when everyone's pretending nothing's wrong, if not actively supporting you.

What the Saudis have are manners. Fair enough. They also have stability, which is the real reason they’re Uncle’s point man on the peninsula.

If Iran.played nice, they could easily play that role too.

Interesting that the only thing that separates potential friends of Uncle is a little thing called manners.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #21 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:19am

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:13am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 9:59pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 9:09pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 8:55pm:

The Saudis follow the Wahabist school, which is actually a minority sect in sunni Islam. The wahabists were an irrelevancy in the Islamic world until they were funded and empowered by the British who used them as a tool against the Ottomans. Then they discovered oil, and they used the petro-dollars to propagate their extremist version of Islam, as well as spawn a new generation of rich and powerful jihadists like bin Laden.

Yes. I get all that.
If you could be bothered sifting thru all my posts you'd see my idea for a new world order would begin with independence from oil and neutering KSA.

But it's 2016 and Islam is lerching towards Islamism.

So when I see stuff like this and Im told bugger off you Islamophobe can you not understand the frustration?

http://m.smh.com.au/national/wikileaks-saudi-cables-reveal-secret-saudi-government-influence-in-australia-20150620-ght4kp.html

The way I see it, so much of all this is determined by geo-politics. Saudi influence - and with it the rise of Islamism in the middle east (and to a lesser extent across the muslim world), was instigated by dramatic geo-political changes: first the fall of the Ottoman hegemony, and then the decline of western imperialism. The arab spring was another major geo-political change that emboldened the Islamists even more. And then throw into the mix the catastrophic political vacuum left by the invasion of Iraq that directly led to the rise of ISIS.

What I'm saying is, everything to do with Islamism in the muslim world comes down to geo-political influences. It rose only because of changing geo-political factors, and if it falls, it will be because of geo-political factors. Actual philosophical and theological developments in the Islamic religion don't even rate a mention. All the different ideas are already there: extreme, moderate, reformist, conservative - you name it, they all exist, and any of them can become dominant given the right conditions. And the only thing that determines which particular ideology dominates and prevails is mundane and wholly secular political issues. And on that score, my sense is that we are on the verge of another tectonic shift in Islam - brought about by the fact that the petro-dollar economic bonanza and associated western protection racket enjoyed by the Saudis is coming to a shuddering halt. It was revealed recently that the Saudis can only balance their budget with an oil price of around $100 a barrel. For the last 6 months or so it has been around $30-$40. The Saudis have been panicking - ramping up production (and in so doing so putting even more downward pressure on prices) in a desperate attempt to push the North American shale operators out of the market, in the hope that this will eventually enable prices to go back up to where they want it. How long can this brinkmanship go? Not long methinks. Moreover their geo-political rivals - the Iranians, have just stabilized relations with the US, forging a new historic economic agreement that effectively leaves the Saudis out in the cold. Its not hard to see the writing on the wall: economic imperatives will finally merge with a rediscovered moral compass. Saudi Arabia now executes more of its citizens than any other country - beheading people for such crimes as witchcraft and abused women and/or foreign workers defending themselves. Why would the US continue awkwardly pretending that Saudi Arabia isn't actually ISIS on steroids - when there is less and less economic incentive to do so? The US's logistical support for the Saudis current hospital and school bomb-fest in Yemen could well be the last hurrah for this unholy alliance.

Long story short, I think Saudi Arabia is about to enter a period of deep economic decline - and with it, the decline of the main source of middle -eastern Islamism. However it could well get worse before it gets better: as extremist as the current Saudi regimevitably be replaced by something much worse. And the new 'even-whackier-than-the-other-guys' regime will doubtless use whats left of Saudi wealth to drag as much as it can of the muslim world into the abyss. But it won't last for long, and eventually a non-Saudi/Wahabist Islam will have its opportunity to dominate, and things will improve.

Thanks for the write up.
I agree with the nuts and bolts of this.

I'm also pretty skeptical that the demise of KSA would usher in the good times.

I can only see utter catastrophe that would result from the likelihood of the Iran Saudi war moving from a proxy to direct. Maybe a few green shoots would arise from the scorched earth that would leave behind.

This I see as the main reason why USA/Iran relations are heading towards normalization. They don't want Russia to be Iran's only friend.

Good segue to Iran actually, they're batsh!t crazy in their own right and we can't blame wahhabism.

I totally get why they booted the Shah. He needed to go and every day Iranians are probably better for it, but Iran could have been such an interesting place if it was a secular revolution.

The overwhealming majority of Iranians would agree.

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #22 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:07am:

Most sunnis reject the wahabist ideology. Make what you will of that.

I also thought wahabist ideology was simply Sunni Islam peculated to it's strongest form, taken to it's logical conclusion.

Aren't moderate Muslims just less observant?

As an example, I live in a very Jewish area. Most of the Jews I know 'dig on swine'. I've met a few Hasids and the Jews I know have described them as following the same set of rules, just being sticklers for rules.

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Yadda

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #23 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:38am

Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?

QUESTION;
Is the Pope a Catholic ???

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 8:30am:

I don't see the Saudis with much veneer of respectability.

Its just that its easy to have your atrocities fly under the radar when everyone's pretending nothing's wrong, if not actively supporting you.

gandalf complains that the Saudis are not good exemplars of true ISLAM.

Coz, ISLAM is a much more virtuous faith, than the example of ISLAM which is portrayed by the Saudis !!!

Honest!!! Cheesy

FACT;

EVERY moslem reveres Mohammed [Allah's Apostle].

According to EVERY moslem, .....Mohammed [Allah's Apostle] was a paragon of virtue and of moral example, to all humanity !!!!

THE EXAMPLE OF MOHAMMED [Allah's messenger] #1,

Mohammed instructs the moslem, that NOT being a moslem, is a sanction for execution....

THE HADITH....

"...the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him."

- DEAD.
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #004.052.260

THE EXAMPLE OF MOHAMMED [Allah's messenger] #2,

Mohammed instructs the moslem, that murdering for his 'religion' is halal....

"Allah's Apostle said, "Who is willing to kill Ka'b bin Al-Ashraf who has hurt Allah and His Apostle?" Thereupon Muhammad bin Maslama got up saying, "O Allah's Apostle! Would you like that I kill him?" The Prophet said, "Yes," Muhammad bin Maslama said, "Then allow me to say a (false) thing (i.e. to deceive Kab). "The Prophet said, "You may say it." "
hadithsunnah/bukhari/ #005.059.369

THE EXAMPLE OF MOHAMMED [Allah's messenger] #3,

Mohammed [Allah's messenger] instructs the moslem, that murdering a poetess [who is 'threatening' his 'religion'] is halal....

Quote:

Ishaq: 676 “[Context note: Asma bint Marwan was a writer. She wrote critically of Muhammad, telling her tribe to be wary of him, like this:] ‘You obey a stranger who encourages you to murder for booty. You are greedy men. Is there no honor among you?’ Upon hearing those lines Muhammad said, ‘Will no one rid me of this woman?’ Umayr, a zealous Muslim, decided to execute the Prophet’s wishes. That very night he crept into the writer’s home while she lay sleeping surrounded by her young children. There was one at her breast. Umayr removed the suckling baby and then plunged his sword into the poet. The next morning in the mosque, Muhammad, who was aware of the assassination, said, ‘You have helped Allah and His Apostle.’ Umayr said, ‘She had five sons; should I feel guilty?’ ‘No,’ the Prophet answered. ‘Killing her was as meaningless as two goats butting heads.’ ”

http://www.foundalis.com/rlg/Islam_and_peace.htm

But what could a naive non-moslem argue ????

Perhaps, that Mohammed, was just one man ?

Not a religion in himself ?

But what did Allah [ISLAM's deity] have to say, about Mohammed's virtue ???

"Ye have indeed in the Messenger of Allah [i.e. Mohammed] a beautiful pattern (of conduct) for any one whose hope is in Allah and the Final Day, and who engages much in the Praise of Allah."
Koran 33.021

Yes folks, ....ISLAM is truly a virtuous religion.

Just ask gandalf.

gandalf is an expert on ISLAM's underlying virtuous nature. Tongue

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #24 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:49am

[/quote]The overwhealming majority of Iranians would agree. [/quote]

Yes, I hold more hope for Persians than Arabs, particularly if yearn for their pre-arab invasion glory days.

To put it in a glib way, belly dancing vs burkas Wink

I've met enough Iranians to conclude they want to be rid of the Islamic revolution.

The ones I've met in Sydney are naturally creative, artistic and musical but they still have deeply ingrained Islamic hatreds which would take a few generations of total secularism to expunge.

Any Iranians who want to immigrate to Australia should make a pledge towards secularism.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #25 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 11:41am

Most of the Iranians I’ve met are avowed secularists, if not atheist Marxists.

And yes, Persian culture is completely different to Arab culture. Iranians have the things you’ve mentioned, possibly due to the influence of Sufism, a branch of Islam the mullahs have been.keen to wipe out.

Perhaps the Islamic revolution could have gone another way without the dominance of Khomeni. While the mullahs are generally hardline in Iran, they’ve been chosen to be hardline, in much the same way the Anglican church in Sydney has become conservative and evangelical under the dominance of the Jensen.brothers.

Islam is not one set of rules and beliefs, and nor should it be. Every time people insist the Saudis or Ayotollahs are the natural embodiment of Islam, they side with the extremists. There is far too much of a reliance on rules, both within Islam and the gaze we use to view it as outsiders. Islam is a devotional practice - everything Muhammed said needs to be placed in this context. The aim.of Islam isn’t personal obedience to imams or mullahs, but spiritual peace.

Of course you don’t get this by beheading blasphemers or stoning adulterers. That’s just bullsh!t. Cruelty does not bring anyone closer to God. Those who believe that suicide bombing will bring you rewards in the afterlife are in for a nasty surprise.

Islam teaches this - it’s all in the Koran and much Islamic culture throughout central Asia. There is a culture there of treating strangers as God,. People from different religions and cultures are welcomed as guests, not murdered for being infidels. Go up nto the Hindu Kush, and you’ll find men who will lay down their lives to defend their guests. People here live by very strong codes. I’m not sure if this is the influence of Islam or the Mongals.

I haven’t been there, just read about it. I have, however experienced similar generousity and kindness by Kashmiris, a very civilised people. I’ve also experienced it in Java, but again, whether this is the influence of Islam or an older anamist culture, I’m unsure.

People are people. Some are hard, some are open.and kind. I have not found any major differences between Muslims or anyone else.- while travelling or at home.

This is why I’m such a shameless apologist for Muslims - I live with them, work with them, and often meet them while travelling. A UK.Daily Mail article or a post from Jihadwatch is not going to turn me around.- nor are the words of hate preachers here who admit they don’t know any Muslims.

I’m told I need to be loyal to "my own kind" by agreeing to hate Muslims. And not just this, I’m supposed to agree with blatant lies about Muslims. It’s not good enough to just stay quiet either. Herbie often demands a response from his usual suspects, the appeasers and apologists. FD will quote your post in a thread on its own. If you ignore this, he gets most shirty.

"Your own kind" are presumably white Anglo Saxon Protestants, but this isn’t good enough either. If you disagree, you’re worse than those from other races, you’re a traitor. And traitors, as Herbie says, deserve to be shot.

To not be a traitor, I have to give up all my experiences with people and agree to hate Muslims. I then have to agree with everything "my own kind" says about them - mostly fabricated stories and facts and statistics. I have to join in the haw haws about how ugly and stupid Muslims are and side with the campaign to ban them, kill them, nuke them. I have to pretend that we will one day change the constitution to do this, and that we will even develop our own nuclear weapons program for this very purpose.

These are not exaggerations. All these things are said to me here on a daily basis. Sometimes, when I raise the more ludicrous statements people have made, they pretend they never said them. To be fair, many have probably forgotten. People can say ludicrous things in debate that sound dumb when they’ve calmed down, but a number of posters here say them with complete clarity. Sprintcyclist, for example, wants Muslims casterated. Soren wants their headscarves forcibly removed. Many want them.deported, and if there’s nowhere else to send them, detained for life.

And if I raise a slight question about this, or raise the idea later, or even have a harmless chuckle over it, I’m a "thread vandal" who needs to be banned from this board.

And these are "my own kind" I’m supposed to be siding with and calling to ban my work colleagues, neighbours, shopkeepers, and community members.

Which side would you join?

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #26 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 12:22pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 11:41am:

Most of the Iranians I’ve met are avowed secularists, if not atheist Marxists.

Would you be open to the idea of limiting immigration to Australia to people who are avowed secularists?

Kind of logical really, a Pakistani Sunni Islamists can get more than enough of that back home.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #27 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:00pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 12:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 11:41am:

Most of the Iranians I’ve met are avowed secularists, if not atheist Marxists.

Would you be open to the idea of limiting immigration to Australia to people who are avowed secularists?

What would this do? Our public and corporate sectors are secularist. We have anti-descrimination legislation. Equal Opportunity Employment, secularist civil and corporate law. Our constitution, even though it references God, is avowedly secularist.

How would you assess the beliefs of those immigrating? Ask them a series of questions they could lie to? And what do you do wiith tthe Bible Belt crowd and Catholics? A similar campaign once existed to ban Catholics because they held allegiance to a foreign leader, the pope.

A similar plan.once existed to ban communists. Of course this was impossible to do, but that didn’t stop ASIO and Immigration officials from having this as their primary reason for being. We even.encouraged anti-communist troublemakers to come to Australia from places like Croatia. ASIO then.pointed them towards the supposedly communist Serbians to start a fight.

The cold war was a hoot.

So again, what would your plan.achieve, and how could you make it work?

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issuevoter Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9200 The Great State of Mind Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #28 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:20pm One possible strategy is to make Australia unattractive to Muzlims through public education and honesty about Islam's intentions. I have known some Iranians, they were totally secular and had more freedom during the Shah's regime than under the Islamic assaholahs.
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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #29 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:30pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:00pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 12:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 11:41am:

Most of the Iranians I’ve met are avowed secularists, if not atheist Marxists.

Would you be open to the idea of limiting immigration to Australia to people who are avowed secularists?

What would this do? Our public and corporate sectors are secularist. We have anti-descrimination legislation. Equal Opportunity Employment, secularist civil and corporate law. Our constitution, even though it references God, is avowedly secularist.

How would you assess the beliefs of those immigrating? Ask them a series of questions they could lie to? And what do you do wiith tthe Bible Belt crowd and Catholics? A similar campaign once existed to ban Catholics because they held allegiance to a foreign leader, the pope.

A similar plan.once existed to ban communists. Of course this was impossible to do, but that didn’t stop ASIO and Immigration officials from having this as their primary reason for being. We even.encouraged anti-communist troublemakers to come to Australia from places like Croatia. ASIO then.pointed them towards the supposedly communist Serbians to start a fight.

The cold war was a hoot.

So again, what would your plan.achieve, and how could you make it work?

Well we screen for a lot of things, I don't have all the answers but I like the objective.

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