Australian Politics Forum - Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?

Frank

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #45 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 8:49pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 7:43pm:

Frank wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 6:44pm:

The evidence is that Muslims moving to the West do not leave behind their aspirations for a caliphate, for sharia, they do not leave the idea of an Islamic Ummah behind them. SO as the number of Muslims grows in any country, the agitation for sharia, caliphate, Islamic laws and customs grows.

There is nothing unexpected about this. Previous waives of migrants had no religio-polititical identities. The Greeks and Italians and the Vietnamese or even the Chinese are not bringing a distinctive religio-political identity and idea of social organisation. Muslims do.
To be a Muslim is to be consciously distinct from Christians, Jews. Hindus, atheists, idolaters.

The Greeks and Italians and Vietnamese didn't want you to become Greek, Italian, etc.
Islam is an intolerant religion. It demands submission, one way or another.

What evidence, Frank?

Every evidence. There is simply no evidence to the contrary.
There is no evidence of Muslim integration, assimilation, there is no evidence of any Islamic improvement of the West.
There is Islamic terrorism in the West following Islamic immigration to the West. There is no evidence of Islam making any Western country better on any measure. There is overwhelming evidence, however, that countries that do not allow Muslim immigration have zero Islamic terrorism.

WHat exactly did you expect? Do you think Islam improves any society? If so, explain.

I think it makes every society worse. Show how this is wrong, if you can. I don't think you can. The first requirement of a functioning and pleasant society is that it must have no Islam. Islam is detrimental to every society.ii

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95382 Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #46 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.
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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #47 - Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:20pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.

Well some seem to be
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir_(Australia)

I'm pretty familiar with the Viet and Laos communities in Sydney and I've yet to hear of them joining s communist party. Wink

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Frank

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #48 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 8:48am

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.

The caliphate is a an Islamic notion, like jihad and submission. The caliphate comes with Islam.

Muslims coming to the West, including Australia, do not become any less Muslim than they were before. If anything, their children become even more fanatic.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #49 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:30am

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 10:20pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.

Well some seem to be
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hizb_ut-Tahrir_(Australia)

I'm pretty familiar with the Viet and Laos communities in Sydney and I've yet to hear of them joining s communist party. Wink

Sure, but they do say this:

Quote:

Conference spokesman Wassim Doureihi said the work of Hizb ut-Tahrir was not to change the political landscape in Australia. He added, "It is because of Islam and my allegiance to Islam that I am responsible for ensuring to do what I can to protect the safety and security of all peoples in this country and beyond."[12]

Does anyone believe it?

I doubt that very much, but it looks like Hizb ut-Tahrir have ticked your box.

As for communists, you raise a very interesting point. Quite a few immigrants believe in communism. I've met quite a few. None, however, believe there will be a communist revolution anytime soon. None of the ones I've met have joined communist-style parties or are politically active.

None of the Muslims I've met are politically active either. Strangely enough, none want a "caliphate".

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« Last Edit: Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:40am by Karnal »

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #50 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:35am

Frank wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 8:48am:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.

The caliphate is a an Islamic notion, like jihad and submission. The caliphate comes with Islam.

Muslims coming to the West, including Australia, do not become any less Muslim than they were before. If anything, their children become even more fanatic.

A caliphate is just a kingdom, Frank. Australia is a constitutional democracy. Muslims who come to Australia know this quite well. They vote in elections, and a couple of them are even in parliament.

Caliphates do not come with Islam, just as the divine right of kings does not come with Christianity.

Do you have evidence for anything you're saying, or shall we move on?

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Yadda

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #51 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 10:22am

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Frank wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 8:48am:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.

The caliphate is a an Islamic notion, like jihad and submission. The caliphate comes with Islam.

Muslims coming to the West, including Australia, do not become any less Muslim than they were before. If anything, their children become even more fanatic.

A caliphate is just a kingdom, Frank. Australia is a constitutional democracy. Muslims who come to Australia know this quite well. They vote in elections, and a couple of them are even in parliament.

Caliphates do not come with Islam, just as the divine right of kings does not come with Christianity.

Do you have evidence for anything you're saying, or shall we move on?

Yadda being 'alarmist' again.

--------- >

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1458847754/7#7

RE MOSLEMS/ISLAM, IN AUSTRALIA, ....WATCH THE YOUTUBE CITED THERE!

Watch the words coming out of their own mouths.

The Struggle for Islam in the West....

There is only one, 'legitimate' ISLAM, ......the ISLAM which is murderous, and brutal, and oppressive, to those who are not moslems.

Real ISLAM [its doctrines, and tenets, and laws] does not give sanction to, nor tolerate, pluralism nor 'multiculturalism' [the multiculturalism, which moslems living in the West, are exploiting - giving citizen rights to moslems, who are living in western nations, is like giving a firearm to a violent criminal!].

ISLAM promotes a brutal, oppressive mono-culture, with moslems as masters, overlords, and slave-masters.

QUESTION;

Who or what, is a moslem ???

A moslem is a follower of ISLAM. < -------- dictionary definition.

And mainstream ISLAM is a philosophy which [within its doctrines, and tenets, and laws] teaches every moslem, .....that a moslem who murders an enemy of Allah, is a good and virtuous person.

But, what or who, is 'an enemy of Allah' ???

ISLAM [in the Koran] defines anyone who is a disbeliever, as an enemy of Allah!

Seriously, ......is it any wonder that so many 'nice' people, suddenly buy an airline ticket for Turkey [i.e. Syria], or walk into a cafe in Martin Place, Sydney, or go to the local mosque to obtain a pistol, .....and then turn into homicidal maniacs ?

No, ....it isn't.

Because;

Every moslem, is a moslem.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136692 Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #52 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 10:37am I had hopes that this might have reduced the number of Yadda's Islamophobic posts.
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Yadda

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #53 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 6:43pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 10:37am:

I had hopes that this might have reduced the number of Yadda's Islamophobic posts.

[http://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/health/health-problems/hundreds-of-prescription-drugs-will-now-be-cheaper/news-story/5feb892ca9d86ccaf041013aecd39f80]

You are a wicked, immoral person, greggery, imo.

Seeking to divert people's attention, away from the truth of their circumstances.

Very naughty!!!

Dictionary;

palliative = = relieving pain or alleviating a problem without dealing with the cause.

Taking a 'happy pill', so i won't worry so much ???

A psychotropic drug?

Dictionary;

psychotropic = = relating to or denoting drugs that affect a person’s mental state.

No thanks.

But clearly, people like yourself, are happy to 'push' such [FALSE, AND EMPTY!!!] 'solutions', onto others, your fellow citizens.

THE PROBLEM IN QUESTION ?

Wanna-be murderous ISLAMISTS, living here, in Australia.....

greggery's 'prescription', to 'solve' the problem ? ----------- >

"Moslems [in Australia] are peaceful tolerant people. There is nothing to see here. Move along. Move along."

Yadda's prescription, to solve problems which i encounter.....

Personally, i see little or no benefit, in seeking to [only] alleviate the symptoms [i.e. the consequence], of the problems which i encounter in this life. .....Leaving the cause of a problem, to continue to fester on.

To me, it seems much more logical, and beneficial, if i were to seek to address [or even remove] the cause of the obvious problem(s) which confront me [and those i care about].

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48843 At my desk.	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #54 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 7:20pm polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 8:55pm: The wahabists were an irrelevancy in the Islamic world until they were funded and empowered by the British who used them as a tool against the Ottomans. How did the British fund and empower them?
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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #55 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 7:56pm

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 7:20pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 2^nd, 2016 at 8:55pm:

The wahabists were an irrelevancy in the Islamic world until they were funded and empowered by the British who used them as a tool against the Ottomans.

How did the British fund and empower them?

Have you ever seen Peter O’Toole in Lawrence of Arabia?

A simple yes or no will suffice.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48843 At my desk.	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #56 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:34pm I think I have seen clips from it, of a kid killing himself after putting detonators in his pocket. And no I am not going to watch the movie for an answer.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95382 Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #57 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:36pm freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:34pm: I think I have seen clips from it, of a kid killing himself after putting detonators in his pocket. And no I am not going to watch the movie for an answer. Don’t want to see it, eh? Maybe you could read the book.
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freediver

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #58 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:39pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 8:40pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 8:02pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 7:42pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 6:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 6:35pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 2:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 2:28pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 1:00pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 12:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 11:41am:

Most of the Iranians I’ve met are avowed secularists, if not atheist Marxists.

Would you be open to the idea of limiting immigration to Australia to people who are avowed secularists?

What would this do? Our public and corporate sectors are secularist. We have anti-descrimination legislation. Equal Opportunity Employment, secularist civil and corporate law. Our constitution, even though it references God, is avowedly secularist.

How would you assess the beliefs of those immigrating? Ask them a series of questions they could lie to? And what do you do wiith tthe Bible Belt crowd and Catholics? A similar campaign once existed to ban Catholics because they held allegiance to a foreign leader, the pope.

A similar plan.once existed to ban communists. Of course this was impossible to do, but that didn’t stop ASIO and Immigration officials from having this as their primary reason for being. We even.encouraged anti-communist troublemakers to come to Australia from places like Croatia. ASIO then.pointed them towards the supposedly communist Serbians to start a fight.

The cold war was a hoot.

So again, what would your plan.achieve, and how could you make it work?

Well we screen for a lot of things, I don't have all the answers but I like the objective.

Why do you like the objective? What purpose does it serve?

Makes sense doesn't it?

If someone is happy with a theocracy but wants to move to Australia for a better standard of living, wouldn't it be better to get the candidate who wants a better standard of living PLUS wants to live in a secular country?

Do you think people move to Australia in the hope that it will become an Islamic caliphate?

And do you think there are so many with this intention that we need to weed them out by asking everyone who comes to Australia, "have you ever had a yearning to live in a theocracy?"

But why stop there? We could screen for all sorts of beliefs, religious and political views. "Do you believe in a beard tax?"

"Do you believe women should be kept indoors during menstration?"

"Do you think political leaders should be circumcised prior to taking their oath of office?"

A simple yes or no will suffice.

You've just taken a nice turn into the land of the slippery slope fallacy.

I was talking about secularism in Govt, nothing more.

What would be wrong with a nicely worded clause on any immigration form/citizen test pointing out that Australia is committed to a secular Govt and expects all immigrants to support secularism in Govt institutions?

Good idea, Gordy. That’ll weed them out, shurely.

If they don’t tick the box -

DENIED.

So what's wrong with trying? If you tick the box then show up at the HuT meeting, onya bike

Because it’s not trying anything, Gordy. You know this.

These sorts of boxes on forms are no more than pointless buraucracy.

Do you think these sorts of questions are not covered in an application for citizenship?

And do you know the amount of forms and assessments required to immigrate to Australia? Skilled migration takes at least 7 years. Spousal visas take at least 5. Language tests, skills tests, insurance, bonds, tens of thousands of dollars. Australia is one of the hardest countries in the world to move to. Even the tourist visas are hard to get.

And have you seen a longer customs form? I haven’t.

So sure, lets add one more question everyone will happily tick.

So why not also completely abandon the "good character" style clauses? Do you think this amounts to nothing more than ticking a box?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95382 Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #59 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:42pm Do you think we should add a question on secular government too, FD? I’d like.an answer to this. Yes or no, thanks.
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