Australian Politics Forum - Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?

freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48858 At my desk.	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #60 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:45pm We should add a question (and follow it up) on people's views on freedom and democracy. I have said this plenty of times. I would happily add separation of church and state to the list, but a lot of people struggle with what it means.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95428 Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #61 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm Is that a yes? What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked? Should they be denied for evasion?
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GordyL Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 4365 Hate Town Gender:	Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? Reply #62 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:53pm Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm: Is that a yes? What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked? Should they be denied for evasion? Would you care if an immigrant who turns up at HuT gets deported?
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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #63 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:56pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Is that a yes?

What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked?

Should they be denied for evasion?

Would you care if an immigrant who turns up at HuT gets deported?

Gordy, I’ve asked you about a quote you said you provided, but didn’t.

Are you playing for time?

Does a quote exist?

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #64 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:59pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:56pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Is that a yes?

What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked?

Should they be denied for evasion?

Would you care if an immigrant who turns up at HuT gets deported?

Gordy, I’ve asked you about a quote you said you provided, but didn’t.

Are you playing for time?

Does a quote exist?

Sheet. I even sent you a PM.
The exact quite is in kindle format

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #65 - Apr 4^th, 2016 at 11:57pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:56pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Is that a yes?

What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked?

Should they be denied for evasion?

Would you care if an immigrant who turns up at HuT gets deported?

Gordy, I’ve asked you about a quote you said you provided, but didn’t.

Are you playing for time?

Does a quote exist?

Sheet. I even sent you a PM.
The exact quite is in kindle format

Thanks for the reply, Gordy. If you could just open your book and read out the quote, that would be great.

Cheers.

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #66 - Apr 5^th, 2016 at 7:59am

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 11:57pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:56pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Is that a yes?

What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked?

Should they be denied for evasion?

Would you care if an immigrant who turns up at HuT gets deported?

Gordy, I’ve asked you about a quote you said you provided, but didn’t.

Are you playing for time?

Does a quote exist?

Sheet. I even sent you a PM.
The exact quite is in kindle format

Thanks for the reply, Gordy. If you could just open your book and read out the quote, that would be great.

Cheers.

Buy it yourself, interesting book.

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Future-Tolerance-A-Dialogue/dp/0674088700

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Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #67 - Apr 5^th, 2016 at 9:33am

GordyL wrote on Apr 5^th, 2016 at 7:59am:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 11:57pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:59pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:56pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:49pm:

Is that a yes?

What do you do if this box doesn’t get ticked?

Should they be denied for evasion?

Would you care if an immigrant who turns up at HuT gets deported?

Gordy, I’ve asked you about a quote you said you provided, but didn’t.

Are you playing for time?

Does a quote exist?

Sheet. I even sent you a PM.
The exact quite is in kindle format

Thanks for the reply, Gordy. If you could just open your book and read out the quote, that would be great.

Cheers.

Buy it yourself, interesting book.

http://www.amazon.com/Islam-Future-Tolerance-A-Dialogue/dp/0674088700

Gordy, are you trying to hide something here?
You know, like a quote?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #68 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:42am

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:45pm:

We should add a question (and follow it up) on people's views on freedom and democracy. I have said this plenty of times. I would happily add separation of church and state to the list, but a lot of people struggle with what it means.

Do you reckon sinister terrorists would give the wrong answer? Also what do you mean by "follow it up" - sounds creepy to me.

Reminds me of a scene in Battle for Algiers - the counter-terrorism guy watches in dismay as police are checking people's papers and points out that the terrorists will be the ones most likely to have their papers in order.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #69 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:02am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:42am:

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:45pm:

We should add a question (and follow it up) on people's views on freedom and democracy. I have said this plenty of times. I would happily add separation of church and state to the list, but a lot of people struggle with what it means.

Do you reckon sinister terrorists would give the wrong answer? Also what do you mean by "follow it up" - sounds creepy to me.

Reminds me of a scene in Battle for Algiers - the counter-terrorism guy watches in dismay as police are checking people's papers and points out that the terrorists will be the ones most likely to have their papers in order.

I'd want immigrants who join right wing and fascist parties deported.

Are you ok with Islamists who join HuT etc being deported?

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #70 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:26am

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:02am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:42am:

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:45pm:

We should add a question (and follow it up) on people's views on freedom and democracy. I have said this plenty of times. I would happily add separation of church and state to the list, but a lot of people struggle with what it means.

Do you reckon sinister terrorists would give the wrong answer? Also what do you mean by "follow it up" - sounds creepy to me.

Reminds me of a scene in Battle for Algiers - the counter-terrorism guy watches in dismay as police are checking people's papers and points out that the terrorists will be the ones most likely to have their papers in order.

I'd want immigrants who join right wing and fascist parties deported.

Are you ok with Islamists who join HuT etc being deported?

I disagree, Gordy. We’d lose Herbie, Sprint and the old boy.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #71 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:06am

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:02am:

I'd want immigrants who join right wing and fascist parties deported.

Are you ok with Islamists who join HuT etc being deported?

Frankly no.

Who determines what is 'fascist'? I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with having laws that arbitrarily decides 'this group is fascist enough to warrant deportation but this one isn't'. Because its subjective. Reclaim Australia for example are widely labelled fascist, but no one who is a member or supports them would accept that label. Also you mention Hizb-ut Tahrir, whose Australian chapter at least has categorically rejected violence. So what makes its members 'fascist' and therefore so undesirable that they deserve deportation?

So thats the problem with proposing blanket bans on organisations based purely on someone's subjective judgement that they are 'fascist'. Far more sensible is to simply act on a case by case basis: if an individual immigrant muslim engages in criminal behaviour that threatens our way of life, deport him. Simple. You punish people based on their individual actions and behaviours. And that goes for any immigrant, muslim or non-muslim.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #72 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:42am:

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:45pm:

We should add a question (and follow it up) on people's views on freedom and democracy. I have said this plenty of times. I would happily add separation of church and state to the list, but a lot of people struggle with what it means.

Do you reckon sinister terrorists would give the wrong answer? Also what do you mean by "follow it up" - sounds creepy to me.

Reminds me of a scene in Battle for Algiers - the counter-terrorism guy watches in dismay as police are checking people's papers and points out that the terrorists will be the ones most likely to have their papers in order.

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

And yes, a lot of the terrorist sympathisers we are importing are in the "incredibly stupid" basket and would end up giving the wrong answer in an interview.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #73 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 2:42pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:06am:

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:02am:

I'd want immigrants who join right wing and fascist parties deported.

Are you ok with Islamists who join HuT etc being deported?

Frankly no.

Who determines what is 'fascist'? I certainly wouldn't be comfortable with having laws that arbitrarily decides 'this group is fascist enough to warrant deportation but this one isn't'.

Australians voted on this in Menzies' referendum to ban the Communist Party. They voted overwhelmingly against the proposal.

And this, in the height of the cold war. Menzies even had internment camps ready to go. ASIO had already identified the targets.

The idea that Australians would vote to ban a religion - even if a majority of parliament agreed to propose this - is similarly far-fetched.

And that is the only way you'll ban or deport Muslims.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #74 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:12pm

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

You seem to be shifting from a test they need to pass, to an education session. So which is it? The latter seems sensible, concluding with the message 'we expect you to adhere to this'. The former seems redundant and pointless to me - especially after such an education session in which case they'll know the "correct" answers.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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