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Is Saudi Arabia Islamic? (Read 13167 times)

Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #75 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:32pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:12pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

You seem to be shifting from a test they need to pass, to an education session. So which is it? The latter seems sensible, concluding with the message 'we expect you to adhere to this'. The former seems redundant and pointless to me - especially after such an education session in which case they'll know the "correct" answers.

Oh, I think FD will disagree with you there. The latter will just give them things to evade and tell porkies about.

Google: taqiyya.

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freediver

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #76 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:29pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:12pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

You seem to be shifting from a test they need to pass, to an education session. So which is it? The latter seems sensible, concluding with the message 'we expect you to adhere to this'. The former seems redundant and pointless to me - especially after such an education session in which case they'll know the "correct" answers.

They can educate themselves. What I was suggesting was that any effort to lie would be difficult to distinguish from a self-motivated education session about freedom and democracy.

Not that I would particularly oppose such education sessions. It would be a good opportunity to find the lunatics. The risk is that you end up needing a degree in civilised behaviour to immigrate and it turns into an enourmous bureaucracy. It is really not that difficult a concept, and if you make it a requirement, they will naturally discover how easy it is to get your head around.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Dustwun

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #77 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #78 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:10pm

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:12pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

You seem to be shifting from a test they need to pass, to an education session. So which is it? The latter seems sensible, concluding with the message 'we expect you to adhere to this'. The former seems redundant and pointless to me - especially after such an education session in which case they'll know the "correct" answers.

They can educate themselves. What I was suggesting was that any effort to lie would be difficult to distinguish from a self-motivated education session about freedom and democracy.

Not that I would particularly oppose such education sessions. It would be a good opportunity to find the lunatics. The risk is that you end up needing a degree in civilised behaviour to immigrate and it turns into an enourmous bureaucracy. It is really not that difficult a concept, and if you make it a requirement, they will naturally discover how easy it is to get your head around.

I have a sneaking suspicion that what you are calling for is already in place.

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #79 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

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Frank

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #80 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:44pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:42am:

freediver wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:45pm:

We should add a question (and follow it up) on people's views on freedom and democracy. I have said this plenty of times. I would happily add separation of church and state to the list, but a lot of people struggle with what it means.

Do you reckon sinister terrorists would give the wrong answer? Also what do you mean by "follow it up" - sounds creepy to me.

Reminds me of a scene in Battle for Algiers - the counter-terrorism guy watches in dismay as police are checking people's papers and points out that the terrorists will be the ones most likely to have their papers in order.

Muslim immigrants should prove that they are pro-democracy and plurality.

It must not be assumed as most of them are against these thing in their own countries.

It is not for the West to assume that they are all good until they start shooting.

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #81 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:53pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

Are you comfortable with wahabists coming to Australia?

On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

WWW

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Frank

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #82 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 9:17pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 9:35am:

Frank wrote on Apr 4^th, 2016 at 8:48am:

Karnal wrote on Apr 3^rd, 2016 at 9:58pm:

Sorry, Frank, I mean what evidence are you sourcing to.show Muslims who.move to.Australia want to turn it into.a caliphate? That was your claim.

The caliphate is a an Islamic notion, like jihad and submission. The caliphate comes with Islam.

Muslims coming to the West, including Australia, do not become any less Muslim than they were before. If anything, their children become even more fanatic.

A caliphate is just a kingdom, Frank. Australia is a constitutional democracy. Muslims who come to Australia know this quite well. They vote in elections, and a couple of them are even in parliament.

Caliphates do not come with Islam, just as the divine right of kings does not come with Christianity.

Do you have evidence for anything you're saying, or shall we move on?

The caliphate is JUST a kingdom, jihad is JUST a spirituial striving, FGM is JUST a custom, beheading all who diss the prophet is JUST a too much hummus, carrying on like its the 7th century is JUST cultural difference, killing apostates is JUST Koran sanctioned righteousness as is gender segregation, child sexual exploitation, seething resentment, gay murdering, slave trading and the rest of it.
All JUST positive enriching aspects of Islam. You JUST help yourself to it.

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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freediver

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #83 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 9:27pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:12pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

You seem to be shifting from a test they need to pass, to an education session. So which is it? The latter seems sensible, concluding with the message 'we expect you to adhere to this'. The former seems redundant and pointless to me - especially after such an education session in which case they'll know the "correct" answers.

They can educate themselves. What I was suggesting was that any effort to lie would be difficult to distinguish from a self-motivated education session about freedom and democracy.

Not that I would particularly oppose such education sessions. It would be a good opportunity to find the lunatics. The risk is that you end up needing a degree in civilised behaviour to immigrate and it turns into an enourmous bureaucracy. It is really not that difficult a concept, and if you make it a requirement, they will naturally discover how easy it is to get your head around.

I have a sneaking suspicion that what you are calling for is already in place.

There is stuff about good character and civilised behaviour. As far as I can tell it is usually restricted to criminal convictions in the old country. When our politicians talk about immigrants accepting Australian culture, they often talk about "rule of law". Freedom and democracy rarely if ever get a mention.

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

WWW

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #84 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:22pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

Are you comfortable with wahabists coming to Australia?

But of course. High end retail needs all the help we can give.

You?

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #85 - Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:25pm

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 9:27pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:29pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 4:12pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

They are not necessarily intent on terror when they turn up Gandalf. As I explained earlier, I expect it would be backed up in a similar way to the "good character" provisions we already have.

Even if they lie, getting people thinking about freedom and democracy before they turn up would have benefits. They need to at least know what it means to pass themselves off as a supporter of freedom and democracy. And it would set clear expectations for them.

You seem to be shifting from a test they need to pass, to an education session. So which is it? The latter seems sensible, concluding with the message 'we expect you to adhere to this'. The former seems redundant and pointless to me - especially after such an education session in which case they'll know the "correct" answers.

They can educate themselves. What I was suggesting was that any effort to lie would be difficult to distinguish from a self-motivated education session about freedom and democracy.

Not that I would particularly oppose such education sessions. It would be a good opportunity to find the lunatics. The risk is that you end up needing a degree in civilised behaviour to immigrate and it turns into an enourmous bureaucracy. It is really not that difficult a concept, and if you make it a requirement, they will naturally discover how easy it is to get your head around.

I have a sneaking suspicion that what you are calling for is already in place.

There is stuff about good character and civilised behaviour. As far as I can tell it is usually restricted to criminal convictions in the old country. When our politicians talk about immigrants accepting Australian culture, they often talk about "rule of law". Freedom and democracy rarely if ever get a mention.

Yes, FD, but what’s the Islamic penalty for raping your wife?

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #86 - Apr 7^th, 2016 at 4:22pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:22pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

Are you comfortable with wahabists coming to Australia?

But of course. High end retail needs all the help we can give.

You?

Apart from that, which parts of Saudi Wahhabi culture would you like to see brought to Australia? Are there any parts you disagree with?

On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

WWW

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #87 - Apr 7^th, 2016 at 5:20pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 4:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:22pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

Are you comfortable with wahabists coming to Australia?

But of course. High end retail needs all the help we can give.

You?

Apart from that, which parts of Saudi Wahhabi culture would you like to see brought to Australia? Are there any parts you disagree with?

The lot.

I'm sure there are some nice things, but I'm not aware of any.

You?

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GordyL

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #88 - Apr 7^th, 2016 at 5:25pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 5:20pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 4:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:22pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

Are you comfortable with wahabists coming to Australia?

But of course. High end retail needs all the help we can give.

You?

Apart from that, which parts of Saudi Wahhabi culture would you like to see brought to Australia? Are there any parts you disagree with?

The lot.

I'm sure there are some nice things, but I'm not aware of any.

You?

Do you have a daughter? If so would you like a daughter to be raised in SA by religious fanatics?

On the Ning Nang Nong
Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

WWW

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Karnal

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Re: Is Saudi Arabia Islamic?
Reply #89 - Apr 7^th, 2016 at 5:26pm

GordyL wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 5:25pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 5:20pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 7^th, 2016 at 4:22pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 10:22pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 8:41pm:

Dustwun wrote on Apr 6^th, 2016 at 7:48pm:

At first I thought this was like one of those, well duh, questions but it's actually pretty complex.

Just because Saudi practices the most strict and adherent form of Islam and has a pretty vile culture, is that a reflection on all Islamic countries?

I wonder if Saudi Arabia had a large scale war or even a devastating civil war and refugees were fleeing just like what's happening in Syria today, should we and western countries be prepared to accept them?

I'd be very very worried about that.

We accept them already. They have homes, farms and businesses here.

Put simply, they’re loaded. And what’s wrong with that? It’s the ones on the boats we need to ban.

I blame Islam.

Are you comfortable with wahabists coming to Australia?

But of course. High end retail needs all the help we can give.

You?

Apart from that, which parts of Saudi Wahhabi culture would you like to see brought to Australia? Are there any parts you disagree with?

The lot.

I'm sure there are some nice things, but I'm not aware of any.

You?

Do you have a daughter? If so would you like a daughter to be raised in SA by religious fanatics?

I don't, Gordy, but if I did, I most certainly would not.

How about you, dear?

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