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don't mention Islam (Read 17885 times)
mothra
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #165 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:53pm
 
Secret Wars wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:48pm:
[
Did I not make it obvious that I do not "simply" accept a binary view?  That I recognise complexity and many causes that input into actions and motives? 

Do you believe Islam has got nuffin to do wiv ala akbahing terrorists who cite its words as a motivator and reason for killing? 

Do you think the reasons that they them selves cite as enablers and motivators for intolerance and violence should be ignored? 




I'm afraid you haven't made that obvious at all but by all means, keep on trying.

I believe the problem to be something 'other' than Islam, yes. Islam per se, I have at no point said that it has nothing at all to do with it but i believe the primary motivators to be 'other'.
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #166 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:54pm
 
Mothra, when you speak on behalf of the world's Muslims and tell us all how they "translate" the Koran, are you doing so from a position of complete and utter ignorance of how the world's Muslims actually translate the Koran?

The OIC has been attempting to use the UN to re-criminalise blasphemy. Would you regard this as evidence that they "translate" the Koran peacefully? Does this reassure you?

Quote:
Mohammed brought in many rights for women. Women's lots improved markedly when he came to power.


Muhammed got his rape and pillage career started by marrying a wealthy widower who was managing her own affairs. It all went downhill from there.

If you are so happy to compare Islam with 7th century Arabian tribal society, why are you so reluctant to do the same with modern society?

Quote:
The ME is a shithole because the West has made it a shithole. Are you familiar with what Afghanistan was like before the USSR and the US tore it to pieces and left the Taliban behind? How women were once treated?


Ah, so non-Muslims are to blame for the shithole that Muslims have created in every single country they dominate, but when it comes to them refraining from hacking each other's heads off on a daily basis, you can devine from this how they "translate" the Koran?

Tell me Mothra, if you wanted to actually find out how Muslims translate the Koran, would asking them be such an outrageous idea? Do you think that might be a bit more sensible than trying to read into their actions on a global scale, while blaming all the poo they carry on with on non-Muslims?
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mothra
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #167 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:56pm
 
I've spoken to many Muslims FD.

Have you ever spoken to one?
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #168 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:57pm
 
Yes Mothra. And don't worry, I can understand your sudden desire to change the subject.
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #169 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:58pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:57pm:
Yes Mothra.


How do you know they were Muslims, FD?

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mothra
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #170 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:57pm:
Yes Mothra. And don't worry, I can understand your sudden desire to change the subject.




How am i changing the subject?

Would you agree that the Muslims you have spoken to interpret the Quran peacefully?
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #171 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm
 
Grin
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #172 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:01pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm:
Grin


Ah.
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mothra
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #173 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:01pm
 
At the time of Muhammad's birth, women in 7th century Arabia had few if any rights. Even the right of life could be in question, since it was not uncommon for small girls to be buried alive during times of scarcity. In the Qur'an, it is said that on Judgment Day "buried girls" will rise out of their graves and ask for what crime they were killed. Part of Muhammad's legacy was to end infanticide and establish explicit rights for women.

Islam teaches that men and women are equal before God. It grants women divinely sanctioned inheritance, property, social and marriage rights, including the right to reject the terms of a proposal and to initiate divorce. The American middle-class trend to include a prenuptial agreement in the marriage contract is completely acceptable in Islamic law. In Islam's early period, women were professionals and property owners, as many are today. Although in some countries today the right of women to initiate divorce is more difficult than intended, this is a function of patriarchal legislation and not an expression of Islamic values. Muhammad himself frequently counseled Muslim men to treat their wives and daughters well. "You have rights over your women," he is reported to have said, "and your women have rights over you."

Muhammad was orphaned at an early age. He once remarked that, "Heaven lies at the feet of mothers." As the father of four daughters in a society that prized sons, he told other fathers that, if their daughters spoke well of them on the Day of Judgment, they would enter paradise.

Beginning from the time of Muhammad's marriage to his first wife Khadijah, women played an important role in his religious career. According to Muslim sources, Khadijah was the first person Muhammad spoke to about his initial, terrifying experience of revelation. She consoled him and became the first convert to Islam. She remained a confidant and source of support throughout their entire marriage. Though men commonly took more than one wife in 7th Century Arabia, Muhammad remained in a monogamous marriage with Khadijah until her death, when Muhammad was in his fifties.

By then, Muhammad was working to establish a new community. In that context, over the next 10 years, he married several women. In some cases, these marriages occurred in order to cement political ties, according to the custom of the day. In some cases, the marriage provided physical and economic shelter to the widows of Muslims who had died or who had been killed in battle, and to the wife of a fallen foe. Of all his marriages, only one appears to have been controversial, and it was to the divorced wife of his adopted son.

Only one of his wives had not been previously married. Her name was Aisha, the daughter of one of his closest companions. Aisha was betrothed to Muhammad while still a girl, but she remained in her parents' home for several years until she reached puberty. Years later, when absent from Medina, Muhammad often recommended that, if religious questions arose, people should take them to his wife Aisha. After Muhammad's death, Aisha became a main source of information about Muhammad, and on medicine and poetry as well.

Aisha's assertion that Muhammad lived the Qur'an became the basis for Muslims ever since to emulate his example.

Muhammad's daughters also played an important and influential role, both in his life and in the establishment of Islam. Most notable was his daughter Fatima, who is still revered by all Muslims, particularly Shiite Muslims.

Following the Battle of Uhud (625), in which scores of male combatants died leaving unprotected widows and children, Muhammad and the Qur'an decreed that, in order to protect the orphans of such families, men might take up to four wives. The permission itself is surrounded with language that discourages the very thing it permits, saying that unless a man can treat several wives equally, he should never enter into multiple marriages. The usual supposition in the modern monogamous West-that Islam institutionally encourages lustful arrangements-is rejected by Muslims themselves as an ill-informed stereotype. At the same time, Muslim feminists point out that in various cultures at different economic strata the laws of polygamy have frequently operated to the clear detriment of women. Polygamy is an uncommon occurrence in the modern Muslim world.

Today, Islamic legal and social systems around the world approach and fall short of women's rights by varying degrees. Muslims themselves generally view Islam as progressive in these matters. Many Muslim feminists hold the view that the problems presently hindering Muslim women are those that hinder women of all backgrounds worldwide- oppressive cultural practices, poverty, illiteracy, political repression and patriarchy. There is a strong, healthy critique of gender oppression among Muslim feminist authors and activists worldwide.

It would be anachronistic to claim that Muhammad was a feminist in our modern sense. Yet the same present-day barriers to women's equality prevailed in 7th century Arabia, and he opposed them. Because in his own lifetime Muhammad improved women's position in society, many modern Muslims continue to value his example, which they cite when pressing for women's rights.      


http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/ma_women.shtml
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mothra
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #174 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:02pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:01pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm:
Grin


Ah.



At least it was a response.

He still hasn't answered Karnal's question.
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greggerypeccary
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #175 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:03pm
 
mothra wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:02pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:01pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm:
Grin


Ah.



At least it was a response.

He still hasn't answered Karnal's question.


Prediction: he'll answer Karnal's question with a question.

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freediver
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #176 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:03pm
 
Quote:
Would you agree that the Muslims you have spoken to interpret the Quran peacefully?


Not the ones I have discussed the Koran with. Gandalf would probably be the only one I would consider to have a 'peaceful' interpretation.

Quote:
How am i changing the subject?


Mothra, when you speak on behalf of the world's Muslims and tell us all how they "translate" the Koran, are you doing so from a position of complete and utter ignorance of how the world's Muslims actually translate the Koran?

The OIC has been attempting to use the UN to re-criminalise blasphemy. Would you regard this as evidence that they "translate" the Koran peacefully? Does this reassure you?

Quote:
Mohammed brought in many rights for women. Women's lots improved markedly when he came to power.


Muhammed got his rape and pillage career started by marrying a wealthy widower who was managing her own affairs. It all went downhill from there.

If you are so happy to compare Islam with 7th century Arabian tribal society, why are you so reluctant to do the same with modern society?

Quote:
The ME is a shithole because the West has made it a shithole. Are you familiar with what Afghanistan was like before the USSR and the US tore it to pieces and left the Taliban behind? How women were once treated?


Ah, so non-Muslims are to blame for the shithole that Muslims have created in every single country they dominate, but when it comes to them refraining from hacking each other's heads off on a daily basis, you can devine from this how they "translate" the Koran?

Tell me Mothra, if you wanted to actually find out how Muslims translate the Koran, would asking them be such an outrageous idea? Do you think that might be a bit more sensible than trying to read into their actions on a global scale, while blaming all the poo they carry on with on non-Muslims?
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Frank
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #177 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:04pm
 
mothra wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:57pm:
Yes Mothra. And don't worry, I can understand your sudden desire to change the subject.




How am i changing the subject?

Would you agree that the Muslims you have spoken to interpret the Quran peacefully?




Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief or unrest] is worse than killing...
but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah [disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah] and worship is for Allah alone. But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against Az-Zalimun(the polytheists, and wrong-doers, etc.)"

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Etc, etc, tedious command after tedious command to be violent.



Islam is a religion of violence, intimidation, bullying.  How can you defend violence, bullying and intimidation?

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Karnal
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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #178 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:05pm
 
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
mothra wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:02pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:01pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 9:59pm:
Grin


Ah.



At least it was a response.

He still hasn't answered Karnal's question.


Prediction: he'll answer Karnal's question with a question.



Do you really think so, Greggery? Let's ask.

FD, will you answer my question?

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Re: don't mention Islam
Reply #179 - Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:06pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 9th, 2016 at 10:03pm:
Quote:
Would you agree that the Muslims you have spoken to interpret the Quran peacefully?


Gandalf would probably be the only one I would consider to have a 'peaceful' interpretation.


Ah.
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