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When is a religion a cult? (Read 14686 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #105 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 12:27pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 5:01am:
Why should I retract it?


Because you are clearly wrong. Muhammad was attacked and forced to flee Mecca - before he attacked any caravan.

Before you launch another 'I'm right because muslims are such hypocrits' rant - can you at least address the basic facts here? Is physical harassment and attacks on his followers and attempted murder on Muhammad himself so as to force them to flee Mecca constitute an "attack"? If not, why not?

By the way, you are also wrong to claim he attacked caravans "years" before the Meccans responded. The first post-exile attack on the muslims was the same year as the caravan raids started.

Anyway, please do carry on lecturing Mothra for her "ignorance" of basic Islamic history.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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polite_gandalf
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #106 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 12:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 5:01am:
unless you are completely dedicated to your state of wilfull ignorance.


Ah.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #107 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 4:38pm
 
Quote:
Because you are clearly wrong. Muhammad was attacked and forced to flee Mecca - before he attacked any caravan.


Are you refering to the incident where the children bit him? Or the one where the dog spat on him? Why are Muslims always so vague on the details about this?

Quote:
Before you launch another 'I'm right because muslims are such hypocrits' rant - can you at least address the basic facts here? Is physical harassment and attacks on his followers and attempted murder on Muhammad himself so as to force them to flee Mecca constitute an "attack"? If not, why not?


Who tried to murder him? The city of Mecca? If soemone attempts to murder you, that does not justify becoming a career criminal, and only the most dedicated us-vs-them cultist would turn this into "they attacked me first".

Quote:
By the way, you are also wrong to claim he attacked caravans "years" before the Meccans responded. The first post-exile attack on the muslims was the same year as the caravan raids started.


What attack was that?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #108 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 5:08pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 4:38pm:
Quote:
Because you are clearly wrong. Muhammad was attacked and forced to flee Mecca - before he attacked any caravan.


Are you refering to the incident where the children bit him? Or the one where the dog spat on him? Why are Muslims always so vague on the details about this?

Quote:
Before you launch another 'I'm right because muslims are such hypocrits' rant - can you at least address the basic facts here? Is physical harassment and attacks on his followers and attempted murder on Muhammad himself so as to force them to flee Mecca constitute an "attack"? If not, why not?


Who tried to murder him? The city of Mecca? If soemone attempts to murder you, that does not justify becoming a career criminal, and only the most dedicated us-vs-them cultist would turn this into "they attacked me first".

Quote:
By the way, you are also wrong to claim he attacked caravans "years" before the Meccans responded. The first post-exile attack on the muslims was the same year as the caravan raids started.


What attack was that?


Are you really that petty minded FD? Why not just concede such an obvious mistake instead of dragging us all down with endless obfuscating questions? The Quraysh physically attacked muslims (well documented), dispossessed them of their possessions, and finally attempted to murder Muhammad. This all before any muslim raised a finger against them.

Muslims were attacked before they started raiding Quraysh caravans. Its just a simple fact of history. Whether or not that justified the caravan raids is completely irrelevant to this fact.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #109 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 5:27pm
 
Quote:
Are you really that petty minded FD? Why not just concede such an obvious mistake instead of dragging us all down with endless obfuscating questions?


Because Muhammed spent a significant part of his career robbing caravans travelling in to and out of Mecca. This was not self defense, as Karnal attempted to claim, even if a child bit him back when he was in Mecca. Or a dog spat on him. Or even if someone tried to kill him. Attempting to pass off Muhammeds criminal career as "they attacked him first" just reinforces the cult-like attitude of Muslims.

The reason I ask about these things is because I have never gotten a straight answer on this one. It looks like another case of made-up Islamic victimhood propaganda to me. I will ask about it every time you cough up this excuse, just in case anyone takes it seriously.

Quote:
The Quraysh physically attacked muslims (well documented), dispossessed them of their possessions, and finally attempted to murder Muhammad. This all before any muslim raised a finger against them.


This was Muhammed's own tribe, right? So he gets chased out of Mecca by his own tribe, which justifies his career robbing Meccan caravans?

Quote:
The Quraysh physically attacked muslims (well documented)


When I googled this, the first response was on discover-the-truth.com, the second was loonwatch.com, and the third was the wikipedia article on the tribe that does not mention any of the attacks by the Quraysh on Muhammed (but plenty by Muhammed on the Quraysh). Perhaps it is not as "well documented" as you thought?
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #110 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:15pm
 
FD, you’re the only poster I’ve ever seen who uses his lack of research as proof. Have you ever thought of writing to all those historians and writers you didn’t bother reading and demanding they post evidence?

It almost worked with Greggery.
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #111 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:23pm
 
It is Gandalf's claim. He can back it up, seeing as you are running away from taking any kind of position on this.

Do you still think Muhammed went from cult leader to imperialist warmonger merely through self defense?
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #112 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:29pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 6:23pm:
It is Gandalf's claim.


Alas, it was your claim. That’s another FD trick.

Now that you’ve got no evidence to keep going, would you like to return to our discussion on cults?

Or would you prefer to ask G all those questions you asked Abu?
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #113 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 7:00pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 11th, 2016 at 5:19pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 11th, 2016 at 5:00pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 11th, 2016 at 2:23pm:
Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 11th, 2016 at 11:37am:
imho, many organisations could be termed a cult.

As long as they do not harm and conform to the greater society, that's ok.

eg, the Star Wars group do no harm.
The Buddhists and Hare Krishnas do not harm.


Alas, Sprint, that's not the definition of a cult. It is, however, the definition of liberalism: "do whatever you like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else".

A cult is a hierarchical organization, built around a strong, usually charismatic, leader. Cults encourage members to see outsiders as dangerous and/or evil. They encourage members to proselytize and bring more members into the cult. Cults enforce obedience and involve themselves in all areas of their members lives. There are no secrets in a cult - the leadership must know everything about its members. Leaders of cults are usually paranoid about potential rivals, and hunt down powerful members.

The Hare Krishnas are indeed a cult, although they've softened over the last 2 decades. Their leader, Prabhubada, who died in the early 1970s, is immortalized in lifelike wax statues placed in every Krishna temple. This is common in a cult - leaders do not lose their power after death.

The most seemingly trivial details of members' lives are controlled, particularly around sex and family life. In the Krishnas, couples can only have sex a few times a year, and only then after chanting thousands of rounds of mantras. Only the missionary position is allowed, and only vaginal intercourse. Couples must be married, and those marriages must be approved. In the early days, members weren't allowed to get married at all. Chastity was crucial. After that, marriage partners were chosen for them. Today, they're given a bit more rope, but not a lot.

Islam is not a cult. There are certainly cults within Islam, and I believe ISIS is probably one. Islam lacks the central leadership, the insider/outsider group-think, and the restrictive practices. There are a few cult-like practices within Islam - the prayer times, the fasting, the rules around certain routines and rituals, but Islam is not organized like a cult. It is way too diverse to function as a cult, and there are too many competing groups, beliefs and practices.

The Hare Krishnas are a cult. Islam - in itself - is not.


Modern Islam is what happens when a cult goes imperialistic, gets too big, then collapses in on itself. Had Muhammed not had the chance, his cult would have been similar to the others you describe. People talk about the "peaceful Islam", which is what it was before Muhammed started murdering people en masse. He flipped Islam on its head when he got the chance to be the oppressor, and the rest is history.

The Mormons could have gone the same way, but John Smith was not a psychopath.


You could argue that Muhammed started a cult - I'd definitely say Joseph Smith did. I'd need to know more about early Islam before I'd make this claim.

Muhammed and his followers were at war. If you can prove Muhammed started this war as a mission to proselytize, then yes, I think you can prove Islam started out as a cult. 

Muslims (along with historians) believe, however, that Muhammed and his followers were attacked and chose to defend themselves. This self-defense is one of the main themes of the Koran, so it's pretty hard to miss. I believe you've argued before that this is one of the earliest examples of taqiyya; the Koran itself being based on a lie.

Personally, I'd need to know more about this to believe it, but even if its true, the religion of Islam is based on this principle.

You don't need to be a psychopath to start a cult. St Paul, for example, preached with words, not the sword.


Can you back this one up Karnal? You made this claim on page 4 of this thread and have been running away from it ever since.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #114 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 7:55pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 5:27pm:
This was Muhammed's own tribe, right?


Oh God...

...

Yes folks, this really is the same guy who condescendingly lectures Mothra and Karnal about their ignorance of basic Islamic history.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #115 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 7:59pm
 
Do you think he robbed caravans in an act of self defense Gandalf?
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polite_gandalf
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #116 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:00pm
 
No.

Do you actually think thats a valid defense of your claim that he was never attacked before he started the raids?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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freediver
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #117 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:10pm
 
I do not think that children biting him, dogs spitting on him, and "well documented" cases of someone trying to kill him that even google struggles with count as an attack in this context. 70 Meccans died in one of his caravan raids.

Of course if you are all part of a lunatic cult and someone commits a crime against one of your members and you all go apeshit and go on a years long crime spree to get back at "them," in that context he was attacked first. But if we are limiting it to sane people, I would not link the two. Using the same logic we could nuke any country in existence today and dig up some trivial BS and say they "attacked" us first. I am sure it would not be trivial to the few people directly affected by it, but you could only link the two by losing all sense of proportion. Rational people would rightly say we launched an unprovoked attack.

This is no different from your "hive mind" excuse for Muhammed slaughtering one tribe of Jews and evicting the other two. You must first accept the extreme cult-like irrational "us-vs-them" view of the world before any of it makes sense.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #118 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:17pm
 
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:10pm:
cases of someone trying to kill him that even google struggles with


No, you are the one struggling FD.

google: "muhammad assassination attempt quraysh"

tell me what is the very first hit FD.

Pretty tricky this google thing eh?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #119 - Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:36pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:17pm:
freediver wrote on Apr 12th, 2016 at 8:10pm:
cases of someone trying to kill him that even google struggles with


No, you are the one struggling FD.

google: "muhammad assassination attempt quraysh"

tell me what is the very first hit FD.

Pretty tricky this google thing eh?


Have you lost your ability to cut and paste?

What’s the matter - cat got your tongue?

Are you a standard bearer?
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