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When is a religion a cult? (Read 14749 times)
John_Taverner
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #165 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 6:28pm
 
It's a valid question, and I suspect that the answer is "yes".  In Islam I understand that you believe that Maryam, mother of Isa was a virgin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People do have different beliefs, There is nothing wrong with that.  I know somebody who holds the very irrational belief that an Ice Age is upon us.
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #166 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 6:29pm
 
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #167 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:30pm
 
John_Taverner wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 6:28pm:
It's a valid question, and I suspect that the answer is "yes".  In Islam I understand that you believe that Maryam, mother of Isa was a virgin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People do have different beliefs, There is nothing wrong with that.  I know somebody who holds the very irrational belief that an Ice Age is upon us. 


Longy?
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Frank
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #168 - Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:42pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:15pm:
John_Taverner wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 10:51am:
All religions are cults. Cult comes from the same root as "culture". It has only been in recent times that cult in English was used in a pejorative way. Historians still speak about the Cult of Juno, Hermes or whatever. It just means religion. 

Et Voila! Le culte de Jésus:

http://www.mariedenazareth.com/qui-est-marie/le-culte-de-jesus

Le culte Musulman:

http://www.lecfcm.fr/

That's how the word used to be used in English (and still is to some extent)


Good point, JT, but things changed in the 1970s after a spate of cult atrocities. The end of the peace and love era of the 1960s is generally put down to the murders of the Manson gang, a hippie/LSD cult.

The focus on cults came about after the Jonestown massacre, a mass suicide orchestrated by Jim Jones, the leader of a Christian cult that had received government funds and favours.

Cults became popular in the 1970s as new recruiting processes and cold war "mind control" techniques were used to exploit people interested in religion. As the established churches lost their hold over the population, new movements arose. The 1960s saw a new interest in alternative religion. The post-war baby boom provided plenty of young, well-educated spiritual seekers, and these were rich pickings for charismatic cult leaders.

The Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, the Children of God and others used fanatical fundraising techniques. It was common to be approached by the Krishnas or the Moonies in airports and car parks. They both became multi-million dollar organizations with centres all over the world.

Initially, governments and law enforcement saw these movements as benign. After all, it's an individual's right to sell their souls or "swallow the Kool Aid", a reference to the cyanide-spiked cordial used at Jonestown in its mass-suicide.

This changed with Jonestown. Jim Jones' guards killed a US senator who had gone down to investigate rumours of people being held against their liberty. Cults like the Krishnas and Moonies were instantly held to account and started ramping up their own propaganda. The Krishnas wrote a pamphlet and press release saying "don't lump us in". Political favours granted to the Krishnas, the Moonies and the Church of Scientology (in the US) started to wane. Suddenly, politicians wanted nothing to do with organizations that could be seen to be cults.

These cults were a defining feature of the 1970s. They represented the dearth of organized religion and the paranoia associated with the height of the cold war. So this was where the counter-culture had ended up: intelligent young people from good families dropping out to join movements where they became little more than brainwashed drones.

And what about the worldly power of these cults? Think how obsessive the Chinese government is about eradicating the Falun Gong movement. Strangely, US politicians cultivated the cults of the 1970s, and why not? The Moonies, for example, could be told how to vote and bussed to the local polling station. Political donations came thick and fast - in cash. The Reverend Sun Myung Moon had connections to US politicians and high profile business leaders until his death in 2012. Scientology guru, Ron L Hubbard, left an organization to his protégé, David Miscavige, that is now a global, multi-billion dollar business.

Modern communications, tax laws, even modern transport has allowed cults to prosper. We're not talking about religion here - we're talking about hierarchical systems of fundraising and mass human control. We're talking about the dearth of organized religion and the sort of organizations that have arisen to fill the void.



You are talking about the Homintern, the green network, the whole lefty progressive marching through the institutions! Who whole doublespeak, agitprop activist progressivism of the last 50 years!





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Bobby.
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #169 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 6:49am
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:30pm:
John_Taverner wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 6:28pm:
It's a valid question, and I suspect that the answer is "yes".  In Islam I understand that you believe that Maryam, mother of Isa was a virgin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People do have different beliefs, There is nothing wrong with that.  I know somebody who holds the very irrational belief that an Ice Age is upon us. 


Longy?




Karnal -

do you believe in the virgin Mary?


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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #170 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:47am
 
Frank wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:15pm:
John_Taverner wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 10:51am:
All religions are cults. Cult comes from the same root as "culture". It has only been in recent times that cult in English was used in a pejorative way. Historians still speak about the Cult of Juno, Hermes or whatever. It just means religion. 

Et Voila! Le culte de Jésus:

http://www.mariedenazareth.com/qui-est-marie/le-culte-de-jesus

Le culte Musulman:

http://www.lecfcm.fr/

That's how the word used to be used in English (and still is to some extent)


Good point, JT, but things changed in the 1970s after a spate of cult atrocities. The end of the peace and love era of the 1960s is generally put down to the murders of the Manson gang, a hippie/LSD cult.

The focus on cults came about after the Jonestown massacre, a mass suicide orchestrated by Jim Jones, the leader of a Christian cult that had received government funds and favours.

Cults became popular in the 1970s as new recruiting processes and cold war "mind control" techniques were used to exploit people interested in religion. As the established churches lost their hold over the population, new movements arose. The 1960s saw a new interest in alternative religion. The post-war baby boom provided plenty of young, well-educated spiritual seekers, and these were rich pickings for charismatic cult leaders.

The Hare Krishnas, the Moonies, the Children of God and others used fanatical fundraising techniques. It was common to be approached by the Krishnas or the Moonies in airports and car parks. They both became multi-million dollar organizations with centres all over the world.

Initially, governments and law enforcement saw these movements as benign. After all, it's an individual's right to sell their souls or "swallow the Kool Aid", a reference to the cyanide-spiked cordial used at Jonestown in its mass-suicide.

This changed with Jonestown. Jim Jones' guards killed a US senator who had gone down to investigate rumours of people being held against their liberty. Cults like the Krishnas and Moonies were instantly held to account and started ramping up their own propaganda. The Krishnas wrote a pamphlet and press release saying "don't lump us in". Political favours granted to the Krishnas, the Moonies and the Church of Scientology (in the US) started to wane. Suddenly, politicians wanted nothing to do with organizations that could be seen to be cults.

These cults were a defining feature of the 1970s. They represented the dearth of organized religion and the paranoia associated with the height of the cold war. So this was where the counter-culture had ended up: intelligent young people from good families dropping out to join movements where they became little more than brainwashed drones.

And what about the worldly power of these cults? Think how obsessive the Chinese government is about eradicating the Falun Gong movement. Strangely, US politicians cultivated the cults of the 1970s, and why not? The Moonies, for example, could be told how to vote and bussed to the local polling station. Political donations came thick and fast - in cash. The Reverend Sun Myung Moon had connections to US politicians and high profile business leaders until his death in 2012. Scientology guru, Ron L Hubbard, left an organization to his protégé, David Miscavige, that is now a global, multi-billion dollar business.

Modern communications, tax laws, even modern transport has allowed cults to prosper. We're not talking about religion here - we're talking about hierarchical systems of fundraising and mass human control. We're talking about the dearth of organized religion and the sort of organizations that have arisen to fill the void.



You are talking about the Homintern, the green network, the whole lefty progressive marching through the institutions! Who whole doublespeak, agitprop activist progressivism of the last 50 years!



No, Frank, I’d say the opposite. The parties and organizations of the left have gone in the other direction.

Take the communist parties of the 1950s/60s. They were militant.and hierarchical , with strong charismatic leaders. They conducted their business and their operations in secret. The Maoist communist party wasn’t officially in existence at all. They had printing presses, arms and firing ranges, money in the bank, all vertically controlled. When Lance Sharkey or Ted Hill spoke, it was a decree. Their orders were published weekly in the Tribune and the Vanguard, and all over the country,, fellow travellers scoured these publications to learn the correct party dogma. The party line was absolute - far more important than the feelings of a few atomised individuals.

These parties were indeed cults. They said who you could marry, where you could live, and where you could work. You were given orders, and expected to follow them. They saw the outside world as evil or insane, and the punishment for disobedience was expulsion.

These parties don’t have an equivalent today. Can you imagine Get Up being run along these lines?

This is why so many cults emerged in the 1970s - people missed this sense of discipline and existential control. Conscription ended, institutions like the church lost their importance, and even the revolutionary parties died out.
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« Last Edit: Apr 15th, 2016 at 9:06am by Karnal »  
 
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #171 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:49am
 
Bobby. wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 6:49am:
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:30pm:
John_Taverner wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 6:28pm:
It's a valid question, and I suspect that the answer is "yes".  In Islam I understand that you believe that Maryam, mother of Isa was a virgin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People do have different beliefs, There is nothing wrong with that.  I know somebody who holds the very irrational belief that an Ice Age is upon us. 


Longy?




Karnal -

do you believe in the virgin Mary?




That would depend on whether you mean as a manifestation of the Divine Feminine or an historical person, sir!
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Frank
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #172 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 10:57am
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:47am:
Frank wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:15pm:
Modern communications, tax laws, even modern transport has allowed cults to prosper. We're not talking about religion here - we're talking about hierarchical systems of fundraising and mass human control. We're talking about the dearth of organized religion and the sort of organizations that have arisen to fill the void.



You are talking about the Homintern, the green network, the whole lefty progressive marching through the institutions! Who whole doublespeak, agitprop activist progressivism of the last 50 years!



No, Frank, I’d say the opposite. The parties and organizations of the left have gone in the other direction.



Well, it looks to me that you ARE talking about the march through the institutions, the Gramsci/Marcuse project now realised, and contrast it with the previous mode of operation where the 'vanguard' had strong cult-like organisations and codes of behaviour.

Marching through the institutions has meant that all the Marxist ideals have been internalised and strong organisational control has become unnecessary: schools, universities, public broadcasting, the public service, NGOs - all very politicised and consequently very lefty.
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #173 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 1:21pm
 
When someone is prohibited from thinking their own thoughts......its a cult
When prohibitions are placed on everyday activities without a logical reason.....its a cult
When your activities are prescribed regardless of your differing needs......Its a cult
When You are afraid to do other than what the leader says.....its a cult
When you are worth less than the group....its a cult
When reading material is banned because it conflicts with the cults doctrines....its a cult

Most importantly.
When the cult is afraid to allow its followers to explore other possibilities or research other ways of living life, because they know once the questions are asked, the cult will fail......its a cult

Islam is a cult.
Islam is an evil devil worshiping cult and a disease that is gradually destroying life and freedom as we know it.
Like a cancer it moves into the host and gradually eats the host away until it is a putrid decaying mess, just like every country where the Muslim religion propagates.

It is a dangerous and highly contagious parasitic disease.
What we need is a cure, a simple is cure where logic, honesty, compassion and altruistic behavior is commonplace.
Unfortunately, governments of the world know not these qualities, therefore the disease will spread and its our own fault for allowing the governments to prosper.
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I HAVE A DREAM
A WONDERFUL, PEACEFUL, BEAUTIFUL DREAM.
A DREAM OF A WORLD THAT HAS NEVER KNOWN ISLAM
A DREAM OF A WORLD FREE FROM THE HORRORS OF ISLAM.

SUCH A WONDERFUL DREAM
O HOW I WISH IT WERE TRU
 
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Sir James
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #174 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 2:41pm
 
Unfortunately the whole world will suffer until it is eradicated.

Muslims are just a real sad bunch not content to leave other people that are happy alone.
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matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below.  Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes
 
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #175 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 3:34pm
 
Frank wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 10:57am:
Karnal wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:47am:
Frank wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:15pm:
Modern communications, tax laws, even modern transport has allowed cults to prosper. We're not talking about religion here - we're talking about hierarchical systems of fundraising and mass human control. We're talking about the dearth of organized religion and the sort of organizations that have arisen to fill the void.



You are talking about the Homintern, the green network, the whole lefty progressive marching through the institutions! Who whole doublespeak, agitprop activist progressivism of the last 50 years!



No, Frank, I’d say the opposite. The parties and organizations of the left have gone in the other direction.



Well, it looks to me that you ARE talking about the march through the institutions, the Gramsci/Marcuse project now realised, and contrast it with the previous mode of operation where the 'vanguard' had strong cult-like organisations and codes of behaviour.

Marching through the institutions has meant that all the Marxist ideals have been internalised and strong organisational control has become unnecessary: schools, universities, public broadcasting, the public service, NGOs - all very politicised and consequently very lefty.


Good points, Frank. Do you want to give a bit more info on the "march through the institutions"?

I'd differ a bit on the project of the 1960s Western European communist parties now being realized. What's been realized is the social democratic project - the model of the Labour parties and Fabian socialists.

Gramsci and Marcuse were far more socialist. Remember, they were communists. Gramsci was the head of the Italian Community Party. They might have held off revolution, but their project was about overturning capitalism.
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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #176 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 3:35pm
 
Ban them.
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Frank
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #177 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 4:39pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 3:34pm:
Frank wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 10:57am:
Karnal wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:47am:
Frank wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:42pm:
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 12:15pm:
Modern communications, tax laws, even modern transport has allowed cults to prosper. We're not talking about religion here - we're talking about hierarchical systems of fundraising and mass human control. We're talking about the dearth of organized religion and the sort of organizations that have arisen to fill the void.



You are talking about the Homintern, the green network, the whole lefty progressive marching through the institutions! Who whole doublespeak, agitprop activist progressivism of the last 50 years!



No, Frank, I’d say the opposite. The parties and organizations of the left have gone in the other direction.



Well, it looks to me that you ARE talking about the march through the institutions, the Gramsci/Marcuse project now realised, and contrast it with the previous mode of operation where the 'vanguard' had strong cult-like organisations and codes of behaviour.

Marching through the institutions has meant that all the Marxist ideals have been internalised and strong organisational control has become unnecessary: schools, universities, public broadcasting, the public service, NGOs - all very politicised and consequently very lefty.


Good points, Frank. Do you want to give a bit more info on the "march through the institutions"?




Sure.  Here's a very good article on this march of folly: http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/A-march-of-folly-7453


And here is another excellent article on the treason of the intellectuals: http://www.newcriterion.com/articles.cfm/The-treason-of-the-intellectuals----ldq...


Bonus offer: Morals & the servile mind


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Karnal
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #178 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 5:03pm
 
Quote:
We now know that this liberation was part of what some Marxists call “the slow march through the institutions.” The technique exploits small, apparently liberal, changes that become, as they develop, devices for transforming society. Liberations that had the appearance of merely advancing opportunity turned out not to be matters of choice at all. Everyone, meaning especially all women, had to fall in with this new line.
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Bobby.
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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #179 - Apr 15th, 2016 at 9:58pm
 
Karnal wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 8:49am:
Bobby. wrote on Apr 15th, 2016 at 6:49am:
Karnal wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 9:30pm:
John_Taverner wrote on Apr 14th, 2016 at 6:28pm:
It's a valid question, and I suspect that the answer is "yes".  In Islam I understand that you believe that Maryam, mother of Isa was a virgin. Correct me if I'm wrong.

People do have different beliefs, There is nothing wrong with that.  I know somebody who holds the very irrational belief that an Ice Age is upon us. 


Longy?




Karnal -

do you believe in the virgin Mary?




That would depend on whether you mean as a manifestation of the Divine Feminine or an historical person, sir!



No tricks - no poetry - just a simple answer will do.
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