Sir James wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 3:26pm:


A very cult-like response, Matty. To the cultist, any alternative beliefs are illogical and irrational. They simply make no sense. But remember, no sense is used when backing up your argument. "Of course it is" is a very brainwashed response.

The thing about cults you lack, I think, is the seduction. Cult leaders are charismatic. They understand that followers must undergo stages in their conversion. You don't cut to the whacky beliefs at the outset.

Initially, potential members or targets must be won over. The Christian cult known as The Family, or Children of God, used a technique called "flirty fishing". Here, female members would sleep with males to bring them into the fold. The Krishnas use food: Sunday Feasts where potential followers are seduced with incense, beautiful imagery and stories. Recruits are greeted with smiles and flattery.

Hitler used mass rallies, staged events where citizens would be martialed like soldiers and inspired with Hitler's renowned, allegedly hypnotic speeches. Here, the German people were included in the in-group, with the Jews, communists and degenerates used as the enemy to rile Germans into a state of hate and bond them as a group.

Scientologists use "personality tests", questionnaires that point out weaknesses to exploit. The psychological state of "clear" is used to seduce recruits. Scientology then uses auditing, a form of confessional where recruits are encouraged to talk about their lives (and their deepest, darkest secrets which are all recorded and used later). Scientology is good for therapy junkies, those who want to better themselves - earn more money, have better relationships, find peace and happiness, etc. Most cults do. Somehow, members forget why they initially joined when they're working 14 hour days, giving all their money to the cult, and having relationships only with other cult members.

Members of Scientology are brainwashed slowly, in stages. You don't get taught about reincarnation at first. If you ask, you won't get a straight answer. You don't hear about the aliens who populated Earth initially - all this comes later, almost as a test of your loyalty once you're in. If you join the inner group, the Sea Org, you make a pledge to practice Scientology for a billion years, and not to rest until all forms of life have become clear.

Heed the example of members like Herbie, Matty. Start out softly-softly, nicey nice. Don't uncover your former membership of Nazi organizations until you've flattered and persuaded and convinced with lies. Bring them into the fold gradually, and only then, once you've captured their minds, reveal what that fold really is.

This is Rule Number 1 in all cults.

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 3:35pm:


I am, and I've already mentioned ISIS (under Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi) and the Iranian revolution (under Ayotollah Khomeini). Can you name any Islamic cults yourself?

Matty's claim, however, is that Islam itself is a cult, which would require a central leader or imam of the entire religion.

My argument is that Islam can only be classed as a cult if/when this happens.

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:15pm:


You should have read the first part of wiki, the political part.  I disagree that it is generally known as a cult. 

Everything  I have read is generally (that word again) regards it as a politcal movement. 

FYI I don't regard Islam as a cult but it's distributed and method of leadership leads to outcomes with a cult like aspect, though that might also be described as radical cells.

But the intolerance draws from a common well of inspiration, not all choose to drink from that well, but enough do for it to be a massive problem that is growing. 

And the alaakbahing head loppers can legitimately point to that well and accurately describe themselves as Muslims. No matter how many times am apologist luvvie opines that they are not real Muslims.  They themselves consider themselves to be real, even the most real of Muslims and take legitimate inspiration and direction from the well. 

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:32pm:


I'd call those cells cults, Secret. They meet all of Matty's criteria. Killing yourself to take out a perceived enemy and be rewarded in paradise is a perfect example of cult-like behavior.

Many cults are political movements - the "cult of Mao", for example. Some of the more ambitious cults have political takeover as their eventual aim. The Moonies, for example, believed the Reverend Moon would eventually become the leader of the world. The Moonies were stacked with political connections, as is Scientology. Scientology uses its resources to get members into high positions in offices like the US tax department. Like the Moonies, it actively seeks connections to US politicians, and has used these connections to get favours like its tax-exemption status (as did the Moonies).

Bribery, blackmail, kidnapping and excessive litigation are all tactics used. I believe murder has also been proven by members acting on church orders.

Cults work by breaking down members' consciences and personal values. The suicide bomber is a classic example of this. Murder and suicide are prohibited in Islam. All mainstream Muslim scholars, teachers and leaders make this point. That a cult can teach people to practice things completely prohibited by their religion shows, I think, just how brainwashed people can become in cults.

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 2:23pm:


Modern Islam is what happens when a cult goes imperialistic, gets too big, then collapses in on itself. Had Muhammed not had the chance, his cult would have been similar to the others you describe. People talk about the "peaceful Islam", which is what it was before Muhammed started murdering people en masse. He flipped Islam on its head when he got the chance to be the oppressor, and the rest is history.

The Mormons could have gone the same way, but John Smith was not a psychopath.

Islam matches the “Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups” according to the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA).

Here are some of these characteristics, according to the ICSA:

- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.


- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.


- Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).


- The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry — or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

- The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar — or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

- The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

- The leader is not accountable to any authorities.

- The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

-The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

- Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

- Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

- The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.



I know it is hard to imagine — 20% of humanity is tied up in a deceptive murderous cult — but that’s exactly what the situation is. Islam is a contagious cult that incites its followers to commit violence. Either the non-Muslim world unites and deals with this intellectual Islamic scourge, or Islam will continue its expansion.

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:04pm:


Yes.