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When is a religion a cult? (Read 14717 times)

GordyL

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #45 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:18pm

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:12pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:32pm:

FYI I don't regard Islam as a cult but it's distributed and method of leadership leads to outcomes with a cult like aspect, though that might also be described as radical cells.

I'd call those cells cults, Secret. They meet all of Matty's criteria. Killing yourself to take out a perceived enemy and be rewarded in paradise is a perfect example of cult-like behavior.

Many cults are political movements - the "cult of Mao", for example. Some of the more ambitious cults have political takeover as their eventual aim. The Moonies, for example, believed the Reverend Moon would eventually become the leader of the world. The Moonies were stacked with political connections, as is Scientology. Scientology uses its resources to get members into high positions in offices like the US tax department. Like the Moonies, it actively seeks connections to US politicians, and has used these connections to get favours like its tax-exemption status (as did the Moonies).

Bribery, blackmail, kidnapping and excessive litigation are all tactics used. I believe murder has also been proven by members acting on church orders.

Would it be fair to say that within Islam there are many aspects if dwelt upon, not taken out of context but simply focused upon by a particular group would become a cult ?

The word cult is like nailing jelly to a wall, it is slippery. Many Muslims think that Suffism is a cult.

Context is dependent on the person, it is subjective what rules and interpretations you take from a religious text. Unhappily a large number of Muslims, and legitimately Muslim, despite luvvies diminishing them as not real, take a version that they hold to be a true and a large population as revealed in some surveys, hold intolerant views.

The radical Muslims swim in a sea of support.

At the center are groups like the Islamic State,5 al-Qaeda, al-Shebab, Boko Haram, and so on. Their members apparently wake each morning yearning to kill infidels and apostates. Many of them also seem eager to be martyred in the process. Most of us refer to these people as “jihadists.” Then there is a larger circle of Islamists who are more politically motivated and appear less eager to kill and be killed. Beyond that is a wider circle of Muslims who probably support jihad and Islamism—financially, morally, or philosophically—but are not inclined to get their hands dirty.

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Karnal

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #46 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:19pm

freediver wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:00pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 2:23pm:

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 11:37am:

imho, many organisations could be termed a cult.

As long as they do not harm and conform to the greater society, that's ok.

eg, the Star Wars group do no harm.
The Buddhists and Hare Krishnas do not harm.

Alas, Sprint, that's not the definition of a cult. It is, however, the definition of liberalism: "do whatever you like as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else".

A cult is a hierarchical organization, built around a strong, usually charismatic, leader. Cults encourage members to see outsiders as dangerous and/or evil. They encourage members to proselytize and bring more members into the cult. Cults enforce obedience and involve themselves in all areas of their members lives. There are no secrets in a cult - the leadership must know everything about its members. Leaders of cults are usually paranoid about potential rivals, and hunt down powerful members.

The Hare Krishnas are indeed a cult, although they've softened over the last 2 decades. Their leader, Prabhubada, who died in the early 1970s, is immortalized in lifelike wax statues placed in every Krishna temple. This is common in a cult - leaders do not lose their power after death.

The most seemingly trivial details of members' lives are controlled, particularly around sex and family life. In the Krishnas, couples can only have sex a few times a year, and only then after chanting thousands of rounds of mantras. Only the missionary position is allowed, and only vaginal intercourse. Couples must be married, and those marriages must be approved. In the early days, members weren't allowed to get married at all. Chastity was crucial. After that, marriage partners were chosen for them. Today, they're given a bit more rope, but not a lot.

Islam is not a cult. There are certainly cults within Islam, and I believe ISIS is probably one. Islam lacks the central leadership, the insider/outsider group-think, and the restrictive practices. There are a few cult-like practices within Islam - the prayer times, the fasting, the rules around certain routines and rituals, but Islam is not organized like a cult. It is way too diverse to function as a cult, and there are too many competing groups, beliefs and practices.

The Hare Krishnas are a cult. Islam - in itself - is not.

Modern Islam is what happens when a cult goes imperialistic, gets too big, then collapses in on itself. Had Muhammed not had the chance, his cult would have been similar to the others you describe. People talk about the "peaceful Islam", which is what it was before Muhammed started murdering people en masse. He flipped Islam on its head when he got the chance to be the oppressor, and the rest is history.

The Mormons could have gone the same way, but John Smith was not a psychopath.

You could argue that Muhammed started a cult - I'd definitely say Joseph Smith did. I'd need to know more about early Islam before I'd make this claim.

Muhammed and his followers were at war. If you can prove Muhammed started this war as a mission to proselytize, then yes, I think you can prove Islam started out as a cult.

Muslims (along with historians) believe, however, that Muhammed and his followers were attacked and chose to defend themselves. This self-defense is one of the main themes of the Koran, so it's pretty hard to miss. I believe you've argued before that this is one of the earliest examples of taqiyya; the Koran itself being based on a lie.

Personally, I'd need to know more about this to believe it, but even if its true, the religion of Islam is based on this principle.

You don't need to be a psychopath to start a cult. St Paul, for example, preached with words, not the sword.

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Sir James Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 633 Gender:	Re: When is a religion a cult? Reply #47 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:23pm LOL. look at the tears fly.
Back to top	matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. IP Logged

Sir James

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #48 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:25pm

Sir James wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:09pm:

Islam matches the “Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups” according to the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA).

Here are some of these characteristics, according to the ICSA:

- The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.

- Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.

- Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).

- The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry — or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).

- The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar — or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).

- The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.

- The leader is not accountable to any authorities.

- The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).

-The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.

- Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.

- The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.

- Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.

- Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.

- The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.

I know it is hard to imagine — 20% of humanity is tied up in a deceptive murderous cult — but that’s exactly what the situation is. Islam is a contagious cult that incites its followers to commit violence. Either the non-Muslim world unites and deals with this intellectual Islamic scourge, or Islam will continue its expansion.

I prefer the opinion of the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA) than some upset little muslim running around on an internet forum.

matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #49 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:34pm

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:12pm:

GordyL wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:54pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:49pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 4:32pm:

FYI I don't regard Islam as a cult but it's distributed and method of leadership leads to outcomes with a cult like aspect, though that might also be described as radical cells.

Would it be fair to say that within Islam there are many aspects if dwelt upon, not taken out of context but simply focused upon by a particular group would become a cult ?

The word cult is like nailing jelly to a wall, it is slippery. Many Muslims think that Suffism is a cult.

Who says this? I can't think of anything less cult-like than Sufism. It sees God in everything, especially enemies. It teaches learning from silence. Humility is a core value - "the tree with the most fruit bows the lowest" is a Sufi saying. Sufi teachers believe in teaching through practice and example, not words.

Cults are very clearly defined - Matty's criteria nails them to the wall. The definition of cult is about the practices of the organization, not members themselves. People can be cult-like devotees of Catholicism and Anglicanism, but these churches don't meet the criteria of cults.

To answer Gordy's question, no, I don't think Islam is more susceptible to cultish practices than other religions. Islam can inspire Sufism, and it can inspire suicide bombers - just as Hindu-nationalism can simultaneously inspire Ghandi and the Tamil Tigers, who invented the suicide vest.

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Sir James

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #50 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:38pm

Five Reasons Why Islam is a Cult

Unpleasant fact — worldwide consequences

by Bob Smith

1. A Muslim who quits Islam has to worry about being killed by another Muslim.

This is the first rule of Islam. This is why so few Muslims quit the faith. This simple fact — alone — makes Islam a cult. It is hard to understate the significance of this cold hard fact about Islam.

This practice is widely followed today throughout the Islamic world. The most frequently quoted Islamic theological source is Sahih Al-Bukhari Number 6922:

Allah’s apostle said, “if anyone changes his (Islamic) religion, then kill him.”

WikiIslam.net says the following: “the rejection of faith, is a serious offense in Islam. The punishment for apostasy as prescribed by Prophet Muhammad is death”.

Don’t let any Muslim try to deny this fact by quoting the Islamic phrase “there is no compulsion in religion”. All Muslims know the Islamic doctrine of “abrogation” negates this phrase. And Muslims only use this phrase when they are trying to deceive non-Muslims

In Afghanistan, NATO had to use a promise of asylum in Europe to get Said Musa out of prison for the crime of converting to Christianity.

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI.org), in clip #3926, translated a broadcast from Al-Arabiya TV on June 14, 2013, which quotes Egyptian Islamist Abu Al-’Ela Abd Rabbo, one of the assassins of secularist Farag Foda in 1992:

Interviewer: What was the religious justification for the assassination of Farag Foda?

Abu Al-’Ela Abd Rabbo: The punishment for an apostate is death, even if he repents.

Need more proof? Simply Google “quit Islam”

matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes

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Sir James

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #51 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:38pm

2. Muslims are encouraged to commit violence in the name of Islam.

Muslim theological documents — the Koran, Hadith, and Sunna — are filled with statements which encourage devout Muslims to commit violence in the name of Islam.

Here are just a few:

Slay the unbelievers wherever you find them(2:191)
Make war on the infidels living in your neighborhood (9:123)
When opportunity arises, kill the infidels wherever you catch them (9:5)
Kill the Jews and the Christians if they do not convert to Islam or refuse to pay Jizya tax (9:29)
Any religion other than Islam is not acceptable (3:85)
The Jews and the Christians are perverts; fight them (9:30)
Maim and crucify the infidels if they criticize Islam (5:33)
The infidels are unclean; do not let them into a mosque (9:28)
Punish the unbelievers with garments of fire, hooked iron rods, boiling water; melt their skin and bellies (22:19)
Do not hanker for peace with the infidels; behead them when you catch them (47:4)
The unbelievers are stupid; urge the Muslims to fight them (8:65)
Muslims must not take the infidels as friends (3:28)
Terrorize and behead those who believe in scriptures other than the Qur’an (8:12)
Muslims must muster all weapons to terrorize the infidels
In addition to the Muslim theological documents mentioned above, Islamic social norms encourage violence. It is widely noted that Friday is the most likely day when jihad attacks will occur within Muslim society. This is because the mullahs use their Friday pulpits to encourage their flock to commit violence in the name of Islam.

In Muslim societies, even the media become involved in the incitement to violence. MEMRI.org has translated thousands of articles from print and electronic media. These translated articles are filled with direct incitement to commit violence in the name of Islam.

Remarkably, some of the most glaring examples of incitement to violence come from new “converts” to Islam. Why would a new convert to Islam commit violence? The obvious answer is the “theological” incitement from their new religion — Islam’s core texts.

There is an unfortunate PC effort to deny, ignore and whitewash this Islam inspired violence. The amount of violence committed worldwide since 9/11 is simply too high to overlook.

The web site The Religion of Peace has been collecting, counting, and publishing a list of deadly Islamic terror attacks worldwide since 9/11/2001. As of January 1, 2014 the number was 22,178. Don’t let the PC crowd tell you it is just the same as the Christians, Buddhists, Hindus or the Jews — make them prove it. Only an intellectual buffoon would try to deny the relationship between Islam and violence.

matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes

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Secret Wars Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3928 Gender:	Re: When is a religion a cult? Reply #52 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:40pm Who says this? Other Muslims. Seeing God in everything a sign of a cult? Who knew.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96625	Re: When is a religion a cult? Reply #53 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:42pm Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:40pm: Who says this? Other Muslims. Seeing God in everything a sign of a cult? Who knew. Which other Muslims?
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Sir James

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #54 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:42pm

3. Islam does not allow criticism or change.

Islam considers anyone who criticizes or tries to change Islam guilty of blasphemy. And blasphemy is an capital crime under Sharia law. As a result any Muslim who even critiques or attempts to change Islam has to worry about being murdered by some devout Muslim.

In Denmark in late 2013, an 18-year-old Muslim named Yahya Hassan received numerous death threats after reading one of his Islam-critical poems on TV.

It is bad enough that Muslims can’t criticize Islam, but this rule even applies to non-Muslims in non-Muslim societies. Just look at what happened to Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam. He made a short movie about women in Islam. As Van Gogh walked to work one morning, he was murdered by a devout Muslim named Mohammed Bouyeri. At his trial the murderer told the court Van Gogh had insulted Islam. “What moved me to do what I did was purely my faith,” Bouyeri went on. “I was motivated by the law that commands me to cut off the head of anyone who insults Allah and his prophet.”

The Comedy Central series “South Park” parodied Islam in a couple of 2010 episodes. What happened? According to the New York Times:

Mat Stone and Trey Parker the creators of South Park were threatened by the Islamic web site RevolutionMuslim.com. It warned Mat and Trey “what they are doing is stupid, and they will probably wind up like Theo van Gogh for airing this show. This is not a threat, but a warning of the reality of what will likely happen to them.”

In Seattle, the cartoonist Molly Norris thought she could counter Islamic reality. She declared May 20, 2010 “Everybody Draw Mohammed Day”. She published a cartoon with a number of household items (a spool of thread, a cup and saucer, a domino…) all claiming to be Mohammed. Within a week Norris had received numerous death threats. Eventually the Islamic cleric Anwar al-Awlaki put a fatwa on Norris’ head. After talks with the FBI she ultimately had to implement her own “cartoonist protection program”. She has reportedly changed her name, left Seattle, and gone underground.

To make matters worse, Islam encourages devout believers to be “self-initiating” in the enforcement of Sharia law. This means any devout Muslim believer anywhere might commit violence in the blink of an eye, if he finds you doing something he considers offensive to Islam.

matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes

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Sir James

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #55 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:45pm

4. Muslim theology teaches hatred of non-Muslims.

This practice is widespread within Islamic society. It has been documented by numerous authors literally thousands of time. (See a long list of articles below.)

The Middle East Media Research Institute (MEMRI.org) has recorded and translated hundreds of television broadcasts in which Muslim religious leaders encourage hatred and violence against non-Muslims, and especially the Jews.

Here is a screen shot from one:

To make matters worse, this Islamic hate-theology is being taught right here in Western society right under the noses of politically correct governments.

In the United States, the Freedom House Center for Religious Freedom published in 2005 an investigative report titled “Saudi Publications on Hate Ideology Invade American Mosques”. This extensive analysis states: “The Saudi Arabian publications in this study, which espouse an ideology of hate and purport to be the authoritative interpretation of Islam, continue to be in plentiful supply at some of our nation’s main mosques and continue to be used as a principal educational resource on Islam for Muslims in America”. (Is there any wonder how the Boston Marathon bombers got their ideas?)

In the UK a Dispatches Magazine Channel 4 news undercover reporter joined mosque “worshippers to find a message of religious bigotry and extremism being preached. He captures chilling sermons in which Saudi-trained preachers proclaim the supremacy of Islam, preach hatred for non-Muslims.”

After this Dispatches report aired, there was a public outcry. Muslim spokespersons said this was an aberration and that the problem had been cured. Months later Dispatches returned, and found a continuation of hate teaching in the mosques.

matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes

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Secret Wars Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3928 Gender:	Re: When is a religion a cult? Reply #56 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:56pm Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:42pm: Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:40pm: Who says this? Other Muslims. Seeing God in everything a sign of a cult? Who knew. Which other Muslims? Whabbist, some Shia Muslims are hostile. ISIS were killing them. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi–Salafi_relations
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Karnal

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #57 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:59pm

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:56pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:42pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 11^th, 2016 at 5:40pm:

Who says this? Other Muslims.

Seeing God in everything a sign of a cult? Who knew.

Which other Muslims?

Whabbist, some Shia Muslims are hostile. ISIS were killing them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sufi–Salafi_relations

Thanks for the research, Secret. Would you mind quoting the part about Muslims calling Sufism a cult, please?

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Sir James

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Re: When is a religion a cult?
Reply #58 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 6:00pm

5. Islam matches the “Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups” according to the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA).

Here are some of these characteristics, according to the ICSA:

The group displays excessively zealous and unquestioning commitment to its leader and (whether he is alive or dead) regards his belief system, ideology, and practices as the Truth, as law.
Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged or even punished.
Mind-altering practices (such as meditation, chanting, speaking in tongues, denunciation sessions, and debilitating work routines) are used in excess and serve to suppress doubts about the group and its leader(s).
The leadership dictates, sometimes in great detail, how members should think, act, and feel (for example, members must get permission to date, change jobs, marry — or leaders prescribe what types of clothes to wear, where to live, whether or not to have children, how to discipline children, and so forth).
The group is elitist, claiming a special, exalted status for itself, its leader(s) and members (for example, the leader is considered the Messiah, a special being, an avatar — or the group and/or the leader is on a special mission to save humanity).
The group has a polarized us-versus-them mentality, which may cause conflict with the wider society.
The leader is not accountable to any authorities.
The group teaches or implies that its supposedly exalted ends justify whatever means it deems necessary. This may result in members’ participating in behaviors or activities they would have considered reprehensible or unethical before joining the group (for example, lying to family or friends, or collecting money for bogus charities).
The leadership induces feelings of shame and/or guilt in order to influence and/or control members. Often, this is done through peer pressure and subtle forms of persuasion.
Subservience to the leader or group requires members to cut ties with family and friends, and radically alter the personal goals and activities they had before joining the group.
The group is preoccupied with bringing in new members.
Members are expected to devote inordinate amounts of time to the group and group-related activities.
Members are encouraged or required to live and/or socialize only with other group members.
The most loyal members (the “true believers”) feel there can be no life outside the context of the group. They believe there is no other way to be, and often fear reprisals to themselves or others if they leave (or even consider leaving) the group.
I know it is hard to imagine — 20% of humanity is tied up in a deceptive murderous cult — but that’s exactly what the situation is. Islam is a contagious cult that incites its followers to commit violence. Either the non-Muslim world unites and deals with this intellectual Islamic scourge, or Islam will continue its expansion.

Below is a list of articles (with links) to support my thesis — Islam is a cult:

Muslim Cleric Incites Children to ‘Slaughter’ Christians and Alawites in Syria
Al-Qaeda in Syrian School: Infidels Must Be Slaughtered; Obama, World Leaders Are Infidels
Tanzania dismantles al-Shabaab child indoctrination camp in Tanga region
Textbooks In Pakistani Government Schools Teaching Hate Against Christians And Hindus, Jihad And Martyrdom To Young Students
Thousands of terror videos urging British Muslims to maim and kill can be found within seconds online
Saudi Textbooks Incite Hate Say Leaders in American Publishing
Hate content against religious minorities rampant in school textbooks across Pakistan
Barbados Muslim Girls School, 14 year old student: “Nothing wrong with beheading, chopping off your hands, severe beatings”
Op-Ed: A Psychiatrist Talks About PA Children’s Indoctrination
Denmark Immigrant children learn to hate
Education in hate for ‘tender hearts’
Kasab thought he was on Mission Kashmir
How I came face to face with Taliban teen killers
Inside a Pakistani school where children are being brainwashed into terrorists
Islamic Textbook Teaches It’s OK to Kill
Italy: Police arrest six Moroccan ‘jihadists’ in north
Kids learn hate at Afghan mosque(This article also included a good video)
‘Muslim Eton’ at centre of Channel 4 hate-preaching allegations is forced to shut over far-Right safety fears
Psychologist: Western Quran schools are “terrorist factories”
Exclusive: over 60 per cent of Britain’s Muslim schools have extremist links, says draft report
Pak textbooks build hate culture against India
Police probe into child beatings at mosques
Police warn of Jihad training for children
Preachers of separatism at work inside Britain’s mosques
Provincial govt to review programmes in Islamic religious schools
Study offers glimpse into what it takes to be suicide bomber
Taliban using mosques as recruitment centres: Media reports
The 14-year-old Afghan suicide bomber
UK: Anti-Semitism Rampant in Muslim Schools Second Generation More Extreme than Parents
‘Death to bloggers’: Bangladesh Islamists
1226613966218?sv=77818a7f700554d69830c9dbaa98f596#.UWAorVi_jzM.twitter
Slain Egyptian anti-Islamist writer Faraj Fouda remembered
Islamic TV channel fined £85,000 for inciting violence
EU urges Tehran to drop death penalty for apostasy
Algeria: Al-Qaeda attacks moderates

matty = muslim with a mat collection, invented by the intellectual giants with an IQ of 81 or below. Yeah its such a gotcha , I know. Roll Eyes

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96625	Re: When is a religion a cult? Reply #59 - Apr 11^th, 2016 at 6:07pm Quote: Islam matches the “Characteristics Associated with Cultic Groups” according to the International Cultic Studies Association (ICSA). Would you mind showing where the ICSA makes this claim, Matty? Cheers.
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