Australian Politics Forum - Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam

Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #105 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along.

Civilisation does not disappear in a few centuries Gandalf. The Europeans were harkening back to the glory days of Rome for over a millenia..

No, FD, half a millenia. The "rebirth" of Roman civilization - the Renaissance - happened in the late 15th century.

What’s 500 years between friends, eh?

But guess which empire Western Europe got their texts to enact that rebirth from.

Do you want to have a stab?

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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #106 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:59pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 6:15pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:
Centres that were still standing when Islam took over undeniably became more prosperous and more productive under Islam (from you own source).

To a level far below what the Romans had achieved without precedent.

So they did improve even just a little bit eh?

What happened to the line about Islam making every place they conquered worse? You do remember your claim about Cordoba don't you? Do you even know where Cordoba is?

Here is that "line" again for you Gandalf:

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 6:23pm:

Quote:

Was Cordoba during Islamic rule an "eternal backwater", or was it in fact the most advanced and most prosperous city in the whole of Europe?

It was backwards compared to what had been previously, and what existed in the east at the time.

You still haven't explained what your point is with all of this. Are Muslims only capable of having advanced societies if they capture them alive and kicking?

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GordyL

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #107 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 9:37pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along.

Civilisation does not disappear in a few centuries Gandalf. The Europeans were harkening back to the glory days of Rome for over a millenia..

No, FD, half a millenia. The "rebirth" of Roman civilization - the Renaissance - happened in the late 15th century.

What’s 500 years between friends, eh?

But guess which empire Western Europe got their texts to enact that rebirth from.

Do you want to have a stab?

All this ancient history is making my poor little racists brain hurt.

How can we turn the Islamic world around. Could it be simpler a matter of buying them a bigger bookshelf?

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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #108 - Apr 27^th, 2016 at 9:40pm

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:59pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 6:15pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:
Centres that were still standing when Islam took over undeniably became more prosperous and more productive under Islam (from you own source).

To a level far below what the Romans had achieved without precedent.

So they did improve even just a little bit eh?

What happened to the line about Islam making every place they conquered worse? You do remember your claim about Cordoba don't you? Do you even know where Cordoba is?

Here is that "line" again for you Gandalf:

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 6:23pm:

Quote:

Was Cordoba during Islamic rule an "eternal backwater", or was it in fact the most advanced and most prosperous city in the whole of Europe?

It was backwards compared to what had been previously, and what existed in the east at the time.

You still haven't explained what your point is with all of this.

Oh, sometimes a question is just a question.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #109 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 7:35am

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:59pm:

Here is that "line" again for you Gandalf

Thanks, but its probably more useful to show me the quote of you saying Islam turned everything it touched to poo. That would be more relevant to how you are backpeddling now.

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:59pm:

You still haven't explained what your point is with all of this.

Good question FD - we started by talking about muslim scientific achievements - which even you acknowledged was rather irrelevant to this "social development" rating.

And yet here you are banging on about it.... again.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #110 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 7:43am

GordyL wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 9:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along.

Civilisation does not disappear in a few centuries Gandalf. The Europeans were harkening back to the glory days of Rome for over a millenia..

No, FD, half a millenia. The "rebirth" of Roman civilization - the Renaissance - happened in the late 15th century.

What’s 500 years between friends, eh?

But guess which empire Western Europe got their texts to enact that rebirth from.

Do you want to have a stab?

All this ancient history is making my poor little racists brain hurt.

How can we turn the Islamic world around. Could it be simpler a matter of buying them a bigger bookshelf?

Acknowledging history is important gordy. As deGrasse said in the OP video, muslims have a proud heritage, and acknowledging that heritage is not merely good for nostalgia but important to aspire greatness in the future.

Most people are on board with these basic facts of history. But as you can see, FD is determined to rewrite history - with absolutely no evidence as always. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is not an honest and objective interpretation of history (FD must engage in willful ignorance to maintain his version) - it is very much front and centre of the muslim- bashing narrative.

You rightly want to look at the future and how muslims can improve themselves. I'm telling you that being honest about the history is absolutely vital for this journey forward. deGrasse knows this - which is why he made mention of it in his pitch for muslims to move forward.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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GordyL

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #111 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 8:28am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 7:43am:

GordyL wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 9:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along.

Civilisation does not disappear in a few centuries Gandalf. The Europeans were harkening back to the glory days of Rome for over a millenia..

No, FD, half a millenia. The "rebirth" of Roman civilization - the Renaissance - happened in the late 15th century.

What’s 500 years between friends, eh?

But guess which empire Western Europe got their texts to enact that rebirth from.

Do you want to have a stab?

All this ancient history is making my poor little racists brain hurt.

How can we turn the Islamic world around. Could it be simpler a matter of buying them a bigger bookshelf?

Acknowledging history is important gordy. As deGrasse said in the OP video, muslims have a proud heritage, and acknowledging that heritage is not merely good for nostalgia but important to aspire greatness in the future.

Most people are on board with these basic facts of history. But as you can see, FD is determined to rewrite history - with absolutely no evidence as always. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is not an honest and objective interpretation of history (FD must engage in willful ignorance to maintain his version) - it is very much front and centre of the muslim- bashing narrative.

You rightly want to look at the future and how muslims can improve themselves. I'm telling you that being honest about the history is absolutely vital for this journey forward. deGrasse knows this - which is why he made mention of it in his pitch for muslims to move forward.

Equally important is being brutally honest with yourself and analysing what you can do differently to move forward.

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Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #112 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 10:10am

Gordy no one is saying the "Islamic way" as it is expressed today doesn't need changing. Least of all me. But in this debate there are two opposing sides - of which Islamic history is absolutely pivotal to both: on the one hand we have FDs camp, the "climate deniers" of Islamic history, who insist that Islam never ever can be open, progressive and conducive to scientific pursuit. And they use their rewritten version of Islamic history to "prove" this narrative: Islam never can be, because it never has. On the other hand, there is the predominant view that Islam can be conducive to scientific pursuit - and the fact that it already has been during the Golden Age suggests that it can do the same again.

I can't emphasise enough how important history is to this debate.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #113 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 11:00am

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 7:43am:

GordyL wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 9:37pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 27^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Quote:

Rome had been the centre of western civilization for many hundreds of years before Islam came along.

Civilisation does not disappear in a few centuries Gandalf. The Europeans were harkening back to the glory days of Rome for over a millenia..

No, FD, half a millenia. The "rebirth" of Roman civilization - the Renaissance - happened in the late 15th century.

What’s 500 years between friends, eh?

But guess which empire Western Europe got their texts to enact that rebirth from.

Do you want to have a stab?

All this ancient history is making my poor little racists brain hurt.

How can we turn the Islamic world around. Could it be simpler a matter of buying them a bigger bookshelf?

Acknowledging history is important gordy. As deGrasse said in the OP video, muslims have a proud heritage, and acknowledging that heritage is not merely good for nostalgia but important to aspire greatness in the future.

Most people are on board with these basic facts of history. But as you can see, FD is determined to rewrite history - with absolutely no evidence as always. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is not an honest and objective interpretation of history (FD must engage in willful ignorance to maintain his version) - it is very much front and centre of the muslim- bashing narrative.

It's why FD refuses to discuss his willingness to use porkie pies.

Google taqiyya, no?

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #114 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 11:10am As an aside, listening to Turnbull the other night making baseless claims about the impact of removing negative gearing, gleefully dismissing the need for actual facts and data in place of "common sense" - was FD all over. Maybe they've been swapping notes.
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freediver

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #115 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:04pm

Quote:

Thanks, but its probably more useful to show me the quote of you saying Islam turned everything it touched to poo. That would be more relevant to how you are backpeddling now.

You mean like this?

Quote:

Good question FD - we started by talking about muslim scientific achievements - which even you acknowledged was rather irrelevant to this "social development" rating.

I would expect they are strongly correlated. Here is a quote from you earlier in this thread throwing in the towell on the science argument.

polite_gandalf wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:30pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 12:08pm:

It looks like stagnation from the beginning. Muslims have had 1400 years of history, standing on the shoulders of giants, and produced an empire of inbred midgets.

This is the Islamic-history version of climate change denial.

No serious scholar on the subject accepts this view of yours. You are so far out on your own here FD. And I'm not going over old territory, as I recall you spent about a month arguing how advances in mathematics don't count as scientific advances. But I'm sure you're off even as we speak digging up that old thread and making a new thread about it.

Have you changed your mind?

Quote:

Most people are on board with these basic facts of history. But as you can see, FD is determined to rewrite history - with absolutely no evidence as always. As I'm sure you can appreciate, this is not an honest and objective interpretation of history (FD must engage in willful ignorance to maintain his version) - it is very much front and centre of the muslim- bashing narrative.

You rightly want to look at the future and how muslims can improve themselves. I'm telling you that being honest about the history is absolutely vital for this journey forward. deGrasse knows this - which is why he made mention of it in his pitch for muslims to move forward.

I think deluded themselves about their "glorious past" is just another effort to avoid looking at the ultimate cause of their dysfunction.

Quote:

Gordy no one is saying the "Islamic way" as it is expressed today doesn't need changing. Least of all me. But in this debate there are two opposing sides - of which Islamic history is absolutely pivotal to both: on the one hand we have FDs camp, the "climate deniers" of Islamic history, who insist that Islam never ever can be open, progressive and conducive to scientific pursuit. And they use their rewritten version of Islamic history to "prove" this narrative: Islam never can be, because it never has.

Is this why you are so reluctant to list those scientific achievements you accused me of being insecure about?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #116 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:37pm

Quote:

I think deluded themselves about their "glorious past" is just another effort to avoid looking at the ultimate cause of their dysfunction.

Their past interbreeding with the negroid sub-races or their willingness to take away the Freeeedom of decent white people everywhere?

Please explain, FD. Your newfound obsession with race is an interesting development. What do you think the 2007 FD would say?

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Secret Wars Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3928 Gender:	Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam Reply #117 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:52pm Karnal wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:37pm: What do you think the 2007 FD would say? What does that mean?
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Karnal

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #118 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 6:29pm

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:52pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:37pm:

What do you think the 2007 FD would say?

What does that mean?

FD has two personalities; one calm, rational and curious, the other - well. Let’s just say FD has two personalities.

He gave up the old one in 2007. We’re stuck with the new FD.

And it’s all thanks to a former poster known as Abu. Allah Uakbar, no?

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Secret Wars

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Re: Neil deGrasse Tyson on Islam
Reply #119 - Apr 28^th, 2016 at 6:41pm

Karnal wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 6:29pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:52pm:

Karnal wrote on Apr 28^th, 2016 at 5:37pm:

What do you think the 2007 FD would say?

What does that mean?

FD has two personalities; one calm, rational and curious, the other - well. Let’s just say FD has two personalities.

He gave up the old one in 2007. We’re stuck with the new FD.

And it’s all thanks to a former poster known as Abu. Allah Uakbar, no?

No. Your record seems stuck.

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