freediver wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 6:26pm:


Are you sure? You make it look so easy.

The period until Muhammed gained some political authority.

Frank wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 7:03pm:


Of course you can't - because you are willfully ignorant of basic history.

Frank wrote on Apr 25^th, 2016 at 8:28pm:


Sorry, you may not have heard anyone mention the Islamic Golden Age. Its only mentioned in the OP video, and throughout the thread.

Would you like me to spoon-feed you some basic facts about it, or would you prefer to read up on it yourself? try google: Islamic Golden Age freedom.

Oh what the hell, here's to get you started:

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_Golden_Age#Freedom_of_expression

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The center of western civilisation only moved out of the area covered by the Caliphate when it was in Rome. None of this makes sense as an explanation for why the Muslims could not rebuild an even better empire. It is not like they were the Aztecs stuck on the other side of the world, not even aware of what came before. The center of western civilisation had moved around plenty of times before, and the Caliphate covered all of them except Rome. The Muslims either had it all, or it was right on their doorstep. 

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Did I say they captured Rome? And so what? The Muslims depopulated a lot of the Italian coastline catching slaves. Was there something special about the geographic location of Rome that prevented the Muslims from making something better out of an even bigger empire that happened to exclude it?

Are you arguing that Muslims are only capable of having advanced civilisation if they take it from someone else? Did inheriting the fragments of the old Roman Empire somehow condemn the Muslims to 1400 years of stagnation? Why were the Muslims unable to repeat the feats of empires that came previously, that existed at the same time in the east, or that came later, other than imposing themselves on people?

NorthOfNorth wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 6:38am:


Cool history lesson.

So what do you feel is the cause of the stagnation for the last 300 years or so, and what can be done to turn things around?

The erosion of Rome's power can be attributed to the erosion of the relatively inclusive political institutions that spurred its dramatic rise. The same can be seen in the rise and fall of the Venetian city-state. While the 'fall' hasn't happened, the same influence can be seen in the footprint of the French empire on continental Europe and much of the British empire's footprint.

Where I think Christiantiy did play a role was the absence of slavery in Eruope from the fall of the Roman Empire (with the exception of the incursion of the Islamic Caliphate). British and even Spanish leaders were motivated by Christianity to abolish slavery in the new world, and eventually succeeded. There was even a conscious effort to abolish slavery in the middle east, which is not quite complete yet. Short-sighted critiques of this history often pretend that European powers caused the slavery. The reality is that slavery was the norm, both in the old and new world. Europe was the exception. The same success that caused Europeans to be slave owners in the new world is also what lead to the eventual eradication of slavery. Slavery was a symptom of their success, not a cause, as some would argue, which is why their success only increased with the eradication of slavery.

Without this key absence of slavery, the labour market changes that preceeded the industrial revolution would not have happened. The increased value of labour that followed plagues and the introduction of industrialisation would have been kept by the slave owners rather than passed on to the labourers and a key driver for the economic success of the relatively free-er norther European countries would have been lost. This is in fact what happened further east.

Sprintcyclist wrote on Apr 26^th, 2016 at 9:59am:


Christians? Jews?

You’re right there, Sprint. I wouldn’t want Jehova on my case either.

Lucky we believe in the Son of a virgin child bride, eh?