Australian Politics Forum - The Heavy Legacies of Our Past

freediver

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #105 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:33am

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Today in Australia,, it’s a voluntary system that applies to civil and family law.

Are you seriously holding our intolerance of shariah law up as evidence that Islam is benign?

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Render unto Caesar.
This is what Muslims in the world believe and, when they feel like it, practice.

Do you also concede that Islam asks them to strive for shariah law instead?

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You’ve been told this many times.

I know. This was one of Abu's favourite deflections.

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Most majority Muslim countries are what you call democracies.

How many are you talking about?

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There is no such thing as a Muslim system of government. Islam arose in a system of kingdoms, or caliphates. This was the way the world was ruled back then.

Actually. Islam arose where there was no centralised government. Muhammed came up with his own Islamic system.

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Look at your inclusivity graph.

WTF?

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East and West rise similtaneously. The Ottomans reformed at the same time as European states

The 'east' in Morris' graph of the human development index refers to Chinese civilisations. The Ottomans were in the west.

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So no, FD, don’t bother pretending you can’t find a Muhammed quote.

Here is one for you:

If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.

A bit different from Jesus don't you think?

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Lisa Jones

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #106 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:37am

Karnal wrote on May 7^th, 2016 at 8:27pm:

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2016 at 8:03pm:

You left out Jesus. Why?

Do the examples set by Jesus and Muhammed not form a crucial part of their religions? What about the laws that were 'revealed' to Muhammed?

Yadda, please spell it out for us.

Yeheshua is Jesus in Jewish, effende. He is your Christian prophet, no?

Actually no....He's not.

Jesus is much more than just another feeble prophet.

He is the Son of God.

Don't make that mistake again.

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If I let myself be bought then I am no longer free.

HYPATIA - Greek philosopher, mathematician and astronomer (370 - 415)

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96025 Gender:	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #107 - May 9^th, 2016 at 10:04am freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:33am: [quote] Do you also concede that Islam asks them to strive for shariah law instead? Show me where the Koran asks anyone to "strive" to live under a legal code that was dreamed up after the Koran was written, FD. Just show me this.
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Karnal

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #108 - May 9^th, 2016 at 10:09am

Lisa Jones wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:37am:

Karnal wrote on May 7^th, 2016 at 8:27pm:

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2016 at 8:03pm:

You left out Jesus. Why?

Do the examples set by Jesus and Muhammed not form a crucial part of their religions? What about the laws that were 'revealed' to Muhammed?

Yadda, please spell it out for us.

Yeheshua is Jesus in Jewish, effende. He is your Christian prophet, no?

Actually no....He's not.

Jesus is much more than just another feeble prophet.

He is the Son of God..

That's what Paul said, dear. Paul was a Roman. He created Christianity as a Roman religion. He set Yeheshua up to compete in the pantheon of Roman gods.

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Muhammed came up with his own Islamic system.

Would you care to share this with us?

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freediver

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #109 - May 9^th, 2016 at 10:16am

Sure. It's called a Caliphate. Muslims also often refer to it as an Islamic State. Muhammed built the first one, using a series of convenient 'revelations' to position himself as both a religious and political leader and combine the two roles into one ideology (and for other purposes like getting his neighbour's 6 year old daughter).

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96025 Gender:	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #110 - May 9^th, 2016 at 11:20am freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 10:16am: Sure. It's called a Caliphate. Is that really the best you can do? 8000 words, and this is the sum-total of your knowledge of Muslim social and political theory?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #111 - May 9^th, 2016 at 12:20pm That's the question you asked Karnal. How about this one: If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96025 Gender:	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #112 - May 9^th, 2016 at 12:32pm freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 12:20pm: That's the question you asked Karnal. How about this one: If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion, kill him. How does this constitute a political system, FD?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #113 - May 9^th, 2016 at 12:59pm According to Abu, you can't just sneak up behind an apostate and hit him over the head. You need to do all the paperwork first. That paperwork requires bureaucrats to file it, so the head hacking can proceed in a nice orderly fashion. Otherwise there would be chaos.
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Karnal

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #114 - May 9^th, 2016 at 1:05pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 12:59pm:

According to Abu, you can't just sneak up behind an apostate and hit him over the head. You need to do all the paperwork first. That paperwork requires bureaucrats to file it, so the head hacking can proceed in a nice orderly fashion.

Otherwise there would be chaos.

You haven't answered the question, FD. What political system did Muhammed establish? What political system does Islam ask Muslims to strive for?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #115 - May 9^th, 2016 at 5:22pm The common term for it is theocracy. This is the answer to both questions.
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Karnal

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #116 - May 9^th, 2016 at 5:32pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:22pm:

The common term for it is theocracy. This is the answer to both questions.

Ah. A Greek term.

Caliphates and sultanates are not theocracies, FD, they're monarchies. A theocracy is when the priests run the show.

Now, I've been nice and described the ancient Roman models. Can you quote the list of rules for Muslim theocracies? Can you show us the political system you're describing?

Or has the cat got your tongue?

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« Last Edit: May 9^th, 2016 at 5:37pm by Karnal »

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freediver

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #117 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:29pm

So Caliphates are not theocracies because Islam doesn't have priests?

The only reason you make this distinction is because you are viewing it through the western cultural filter of separation of church and state - priests taking on political roles. Islam does not make this distinction. Muhammed was both a political and a religious leader. A saviour and a slaughterer, depending on his mood at the time.

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Karnal

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #118 - May 9^th, 2016 at 8:39pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:29pm:

So Caliphates are not theocracies because Islam doesn't have priests?.

Trying to wriggle out of your theocracy definition, eh?

No worries. How was the Roman empire more inclusive than, say, the Islamic caliphate?

Erections.

And what were the political rules of the caliphate, set down for all time by sinister prophet Muhammed?

Theocracy.

And the rest, as they say, is history.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49133 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #119 - May 9^th, 2016 at 9:08pm Well done Karnal. You can answer your own silly questions from now on.
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