Australian Politics Forum - The Heavy Legacies of Our Past

freediver

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #180 - May 15^th, 2016 at 1:33pm

Karnal wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 1:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 12:33pm:

Elections are a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships. Classic example, when Tsar Nicholas II allowed elections to stave off revolution.

This is how people get parliaments and erections the world over. The US got theirs through a revolution, Western Europe got its erections after the 1848 revolutions, Britain got universal suffrage after WWI, when the rest of Europe was turning to communism.

FD believes liberal democracy just evolves as if by some gravitational historical force. Liberal democracy has always arisen as a negotiated payoff by rulers to their subjects to stop them revolting. France, Germany, Britain, Russia, all established the political systems they have today through bargains with revolutionaries. In Russia, the revolutionaries reneged, but they’re back to the duma, which has been taken over by a new form of tzar.

Today, liberal democracy is the default position because the interests of capital demand it. Elections and forms of political inclusivity are often IMF loan conditions, as they were in Mexico, Argentina, Indonesia and Thailand. Here,, economic forces demand the payoff of liberal democracy to stop political unrest and sovereign risk.

This is being challenged today by the rise of China, and in Europe, Putin. We can include the failure of the Arab Spring. With economic and political insecurity, people are prepared to accept dictators again. Perhaps the best example of this is occurring with the popular appeal of Donald Trump in the heart of the empire.

People are prepared to give up freedoms if they can be made to believe its about sticking it to the lower classes, in the US’ case, Mexicans and the Muselman.

Unlike FD, who also supports freedoms being taken away for this end, I can’t see liberal democracy being the dominant political model for much longer. It’s certainly not the end of history as Fukuyama (and FD) once held.

So the 1848 revolutions were an example of dictatorships using elections to consolidate their power?

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Why did you include the caliphate and Arab inbreeding in an essay on the political legacy of Rome?

Who said it was about the political legacy of Rome?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96249 Gender:	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #181 - May 15^th, 2016 at 1:43pm Sorry, FD, is your essay about our noble Western system of democracy ot the genetically determined backwarrdness of the Muselman? It’s a little hard to gather.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49258 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #182 - May 21^st, 2016 at 8:27pm You'll figure it out eventually Karnal.
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #183 - May 21^st, 2016 at 8:36pm polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 12:33pm: Elections are a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships. Classic example, when Tsar Nicholas II allowed elections to stave off revolution. Are you saying that Tsarist Russia is a classic example of modern democratic ideals?
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freediver

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #184 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 7:56am

Apparently even the 1948 revolutions were a trick to stave of revolution and consolidate dictatorships.

Karnal wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 1:15pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 12:33pm:

Elections are a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships. Classic example, when Tsar Nicholas II allowed elections to stave off revolution.

This is how people get parliaments and erections the world over. The US got theirs through a revolution, Western Europe got its erections after the 1848 revolutions, Britain got universal suffrage after WWI, when the rest of Europe was turning to communism.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #185 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 8:55am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 8:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 12:33pm:

Elections are a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships. Classic example, when Tsar Nicholas II allowed elections to stave off revolution.

Are you saying that Tsarist Russia is a classic example of modern democratic ideals?

no.

I should have phrased it better - elections can be a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships - eg Tsarist Russia, Assad in Syria, and without a doubt, FD's beloved Roman Republic.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #186 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 9:02am

The poor of Rome went on strike several times to demand greater political rights. They got them. During the early stages of the Republic there was a conscious effort to avoid a return to monarchy. Thus, there was a conscious effort to distribute power broadly among the people, and the complexity of the constitution reflects this.

Does that mean it somehow doesn't 'count' Gandalf? Is democracy only a good thing if it is arrived at entirely without cynicism?

An interesting video showing global population growth over the last 2000 years (starting about 40 seconds in).

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #187 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 9:38am

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 8:55am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 21^st, 2016 at 8:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 12:33pm:

Elections are a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships. Classic example, when Tsar Nicholas II allowed elections to stave off revolution.

Are you saying that Tsarist Russia is a classic example of modern democratic ideals?

no.

I should have phrased it better - elections can be a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships - eg Tsarist Russia, Assad in Syria, and without a doubt, FD's beloved Roman Republic.

But anything can be a cynical tool to consolidate and protect dictatorships.

Why should democratic ideals be denigrated simply because they can be hijacked?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #188 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:13pm

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 9:38am:

Why should democratic ideals be denigrated simply because they can be hijacked?

Who said that? Not me.

Establishing the elected Duma in Russia after the 1905 revolution was undeniably a positive development, but it doesn't mean that Nicholas II was a democrat - he wasn't. And it doesn't mean his motivation in establishing it wasn't entirely cynical and self-preservative - it was.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49258 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #189 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:19pm So what is your point Gandalf? Or are you just complaining that politicians are cynical? Do you think you are contradicting my position here?
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #190 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:47pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:13pm:

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 9:38am:

Why should democratic ideals be denigrated simply because they can be hijacked?

Who said that? Not me.

Establishing the elected Duma in Russia after the 1905 revolution was undeniably a positive development, but it doesn't mean that Nicholas II was a democrat - he wasn't. And it doesn't mean his motivation in establishing it wasn't entirely cynical and self-preservative - it was.

Few politicians are true democrats in the heart, I'd imagine...

When you spend your life trying to attain political power, it would be a hard proposition to expect these people to be (at the 3:00AM of their soul) delighted by the proposition that one day, suddenly - sometimes overnight - they will certainly fall from power via the democratic process and, due to the principles and machinery of democracy, will almost certainly never be able to return.

Stories are legion of such discarded politicians descending into serious depression due to post-political 'relevance deprivation syndrome'.

Democracy guards against the unbridled ambitions of politicians - they don't have to like it - But its all we've got to protect us from the leader who equates loss of power with death (a common psychological syndrome) and a would-if-he-could fight for his life to preserve his status.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #191 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 2:11pm freediver wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:19pm: So what is your point Gandalf? Or are you just complaining that politicians are cynical? Do you think you are contradicting my position here? This latest point of mine was in response to something karnal said. Not everything's about you FD - believe it or not.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #192 - May 22^nd, 2016 at 3:25pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Establishing the elected Duma in Russia after the 1905 revolution was undeniably a positive development, but it doesn't mean that Nicholas II was a democrat - he wasn't. And it doesn't mean his motivation in establishing it wasn't entirely cynical and self-preservative - it was.

Another thing with a monarchical head of state...

The monarch (by definition) cannot be a democrat... They relinquish their role as head of state by either abdication or death... (I think its nearly universally true that modern constitutional monarchs cannot participate in the democratic process at all).

So the fact that Nicholas II was not a democrat is exactly as anyone would expect.

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Karnal

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Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past
Reply #193 - May 24^th, 2016 at 10:30am

NorthOfNorth wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 3:25pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 22^nd, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Establishing the elected Duma in Russia after the 1905 revolution was undeniably a positive development, but it doesn't mean that Nicholas II was a democrat - he wasn't. And it doesn't mean his motivation in establishing it wasn't entirely cynical and self-preservative - it was.

Another thing with a monarchical head of state...

The monarch (by definition) cannot be a democrat... They relinquish their role as head of state by either abdication or death... (I think its nearly universally true that modern constitutional monarchs cannot participate in the democratic process at all).

So the fact that Nicholas II was not a democrat is exactly as anyone would expect.

The Russians ended up replacing Nicholas II with a president, but the fact that Putin is not a democrat is exactly as anyone would expect too.

This is because Russia's experiment with democracy during the Yeltsin years were marked with chaos, corruption and financial collapse. They were, however, the most democratic period Russia has ever experienced to date.

Putin came to power on a ticket of restoring order. Many Russians actually wanted a dictator in power again. They certainly got this in Putin.

When given the option, people can indeed vote for less democracy - for less political inclusiveness. The knuckleheads on this site prove this time and time again. They want a political process that excludes people. They want to ban, kill and nuke everyone who disagrees with them.

Democracy is about including citizens, but it can be tricky. As Yeltsin found, it can be hard to get things done through endless committees and layers of government.

Trump will find the same if he ever becomes president in the US. In the US, the constitution is taken seriously. The president does not have uniform powers to create domestic policy. He or she has to work with a congress, a senate, their various committees, the agencies, the NGOs, the lobbyists, and on and on.

Political inclusion comes at a cost - red tape. This cost can be exploited by players like Putin, and in the US, the tabloid-fueled anti-democratic forces that have led to the rise of Donald Trump. In Europe, it may well lead to the collapse of the EU, which is certainly the aim of the far-right nationalist groups.

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« Last Edit: May 24^th, 2016 at 10:45am by Karnal »

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49258 At my desk.	Re: The Heavy Legacies of Our Past Reply #194 - Jun 3^rd, 2016 at 6:56pm Quote: Democracy is about including citizens, but it can be tricky. As Yeltsin found, it can be hard to get things done through endless committees and layers of government. Usually the less they do, the better.
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