Australian Politics Forum - Pakistani wife beaters

polite_gandalf

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #60 - May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 12:37pm:

Good luck with that Gandalf. Don't get yourself branded an apostate though. It seems like a sensible interpretation, given the context and that a broader interpretation would conflict with so much else said by Muhammed. Perhaps you could start with quran.com?

I'll certainly prosecute my case with anyone who keeps perpetuating this misguided version. I think its a very important component of 'reopening the doors of ijtihad' in Islamic jurisprudence. Do you think its a worthwhile endeavor - to prosecute a doctrinal case for things like freedom of religion in Islam? Or is it better to just ignore such efforts and insist that its doomed to be a faith ratchet for all time?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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moses

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #61 - May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm

Karnal wrote:Reply #56 - Yesterday at 6:22pm

Quote:

Have I missed something in Christian theology? Did your prophet tell you to love everybody as you love yourself, including your enemies, but give you an out for Mohammedans?

Please explain. Chapter and verse, thanks.

Glad to Karnal

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Pretty easy to understand, as the average Aussie would say (don't push your luck mate)

You most certainly are not to take the "love thy neighbour" to the heights of stupidity karnal, you don't tempt the Lord thy God with acts of wanton folly.

You are also told time and time again to shun evil.

I have no qualms in stating that islam is an utterly evil concept.

I have no qualms in stating that muhammad was human filth, a thief, liar, pedophile, rapist, torturer and mass murderer. (evil to the core)

I have no qualms in stating that allah is a satanic evil deity.

I have no qualms in stating that the qur'an is a book riddled with evilness, overflowing with satanic verses urging muslims to commit unspeakable atrocities against their fellow man.

So love something as evil as islam?

I don't think so, I'll take the advice from Luke 4:12 and Matthew 4:7 on this one Karnal.

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Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #62 - May 9^th, 2016 at 2:33pm

moses wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Karnal wrote:Reply #56 - Yesterday at 6:22pm

Quote:

Have I missed something in Christian theology? Did your prophet tell you to love everybody as you love yourself, including your enemies, but give you an out for Mohammedans?

Please explain. Chapter and verse, thanks.

Glad to Karnal

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I'm curious. How do you interpret a statement like "thou shalt not tempt thy God" as a religious duty to hate the Muselman?

When Yeheshua was dying on the cross, he asked his Father to forgive those who put him up there for their ignorance. This is the most compelling example of the new "covenant" you've described, Moses. Not only does Yeheshua do away with the eye-for-an-eye rhetoric, he taught - and practiced - forgiveness, tolerance and love for all.

No exceptions. In fact, he even tells followers what to do if hurt by an enemy - don't fight back, turn the other cheek. Those who love their enemies receive God's peace. Those who don't, as Yehesua said, are not true disciples. He made this clear too: "not all who go in my name will enter the Kingdom of heaven".

Yehesua taught his followers to leave judgement to God. He did not make an exception for those who follow different belief systems. The New Testament is clear. "Judge not, as ye surely shall be judged".

Maybe it doesn't mean what it says, eh?

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freediver

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #63 - May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 12:37pm:

Good luck with that Gandalf. Don't get yourself branded an apostate though. It seems like a sensible interpretation, given the context and that a broader interpretation would conflict with so much else said by Muhammed. Perhaps you could start with quran.com?

I'll certainly prosecute my case with anyone who keeps perpetuating this misguided version. I think its a very important component of 'reopening the doors of ijtihad' in Islamic jurisprudence. Do you think its a worthwhile endeavor - to prosecute a doctrinal case for things like freedom of religion in Islam? Or is it better to just ignore such efforts and insist that its doomed to be a faith ratchet for all time?

Every little bit helps Gandalf. If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated. Do keep us updated on quran.com. It is the top google result when I search for the verse number.

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« Last Edit: May 9^th, 2016 at 5:40pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #64 - May 9^th, 2016 at 5:56pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 12:37pm:

Good luck with that Gandalf. Don't get yourself branded an apostate though. It seems like a sensible interpretation, given the context and that a broader interpretation would conflict with so much else said by Muhammed. Perhaps you could start with quran.com?

I'll certainly prosecute my case with anyone who keeps perpetuating this misguided version. I think its a very important component of 'reopening the doors of ijtihad' in Islamic jurisprudence. Do you think its a worthwhile endeavor - to prosecute a doctrinal case for things like freedom of religion in Islam? Or is it better to just ignore such efforts and insist that its doomed to be a faith ratchet for all time?

Every little bit helps Gandalf. If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated.

Given G is responsible for his co-religionists, FD, what role should Freeeeedom/democracy supporters have in events like the invasion of Iraq?

If you listen to ISIS or Al Qaida, we have a very important role indeed.

Ban us, kill us, nuke us, no?

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Frank

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #65 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm

Karnal wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:33pm:

moses wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 2:07pm:

Karnal wrote:Reply #56 - Yesterday at 6:22pm

Quote:

Have I missed something in Christian theology? Did your prophet tell you to love everybody as you love yourself, including your enemies, but give you an out for Mohammedans?

Please explain. Chapter and verse, thanks.

Glad to Karnal

Matthew 4:7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

Luke 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

I'm curious. How do you interpret a statement like "thou shalt not tempt thy God" as a religious duty to hate the Muselman?

When Yeheshua was dying on the cross, he asked his Father to forgive those who put him up there for their ignorance. This is the most compelling example of the new "covenant" you've described, Moses. Not only does Yeheshua do away with the eye-for-an-eye rhetoric, he taught - and practiced - forgiveness, tolerance and love for all.

No exceptions. In fact, he even tells followers what to do if hurt by an enemy - don't fight back, turn the other cheek. Those who love their enemies receive God's peace. Those who don't, as Yehesua said, are not true disciples. He made this clear too: "not all who go in my name will enter the Kingdom of heaven".

Yehesua taught his followers to leave judgement to God. He did not make an exception for those who follow different belief systems. The New Testament is clear. "Judge not, as ye surely shall be judged".

Maybe it doesn't mean what it says, eh?

What Jesus did NOT teach is 'Give in to every invader and let them take everything you and your people have and let them kill you if you do not submit'.

He didn't teach that.

So while you can be meek and forgiving on A PERSONAL LEVEL - on the 'I and Thou' level - you are not obliged to bend over to every marauding horde of invader (which is what Muslims are and have always been).

You are confusing many things most of the time and this is just one of them.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Pakistani wife beaters Reply #66 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm: If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated. Good idea FD - any suggestions? Maybe if I ask nicely?
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Frank

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #67 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:36pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm:

If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated.

Good idea FD - any suggestions? Maybe if I ask nicely?

Well, what use are you otherwise?

You are the vast majority. What use are you if you can't even stop the 'tiny minority' in your midst??

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freediver

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #68 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm:

If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated.

Good idea FD - any suggestions? Maybe if I ask nicely?

You're right Gandalf. It's a lost cause. Just stick to telling non-Muslims about how you are a reformer.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Secret Wars

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #69 - May 9^th, 2016 at 7:44pm

Frank wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:36pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm:

If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated.

Good idea FD - any suggestions? Maybe if I ask nicely?

Well, what use are you otherwise?

You are the vast majority. What use are you if you can't even stop the 'tiny minority' in your midst??

"But the process of radicalisation generally occurs some time before Islamists engage in the use of violence. We should be just as concerned about Muslims who do not use violence themselves but in whose midst the plotters of terror can operate. Such people constitute a hospitable environment for radicals, though they themselves do not resort to violence. Until we address the enabling role of nonviolent extremists, the seedbed of terrorism will continue to spread.

To make deradicalisation effective, we need to do two things. First, we need to abandon the familiar distinction between “a tiny minority of violent extremists” and “an enormous majority of moderate Muslims”, which is standard fare in politicians’ speeches. Second, we need to counter that sustained campaign of radicalisation waged by powerful Muslim organisations such as the Organisation of Islamic Co-operation."

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/inquirer/deradicalisation-programs-must-resist-medina-militantcy/news-story/938ff09bed30a22bb553e3242c6a9362

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Frank

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #70 - May 9^th, 2016 at 8:08pm

Secret Wars wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:44pm:

To make deradicalisation effective, we need to do two things. First, we need to abandon the familiar distinction between “a tiny minority of violent extremists” and “an enormous majority of moderate Muslims”, which is standard fare in politicians’ speeches.

Well, we must be on the way because the 'vast majority' of Western people have abandoned that meaningless distinction years ago. You can tell because even the Muslims are reluctant to roll it out as a reflexive arse covering like they used to. Nobody believes in that distinction, not even Muslims.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #71 - May 9^th, 2016 at 9:29pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm:

If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated.

Good idea FD - any suggestions? Maybe if I ask nicely?

You're right Gandalf. It's a lost cause.

thats certainly the attitude you're deternined to see prevail, in your constant efforts, day in day out, to undermine and ridicule any muslim who tries to argue otherwise. Every little bit helps eh fd?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Pakistani wife beaters
Reply #72 - May 9^th, 2016 at 9:32pm

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 7:34pm:

freediver wrote on May 9^th, 2016 at 5:31pm:

If you could get your co-religionists to stop killing apostates, it would be much appreciated.

Good idea FD - any suggestions? Maybe if I ask nicely?

Just stick to telling non-Muslims about how you are a reformer.

And who says i stick to telling it to non-muslims. You dont know a damn thing about what i do and who i argue with in the real world.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49431 At my desk.	Re: Pakistani wife beaters Reply #73 - May 9^th, 2016 at 9:33pm How's that reform going Gandalf? Do you need me to approve it before you roll it out?
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