Australian Politics Forum - Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?

Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #15 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:24pm

Valkie wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:16am:

Would it not be more prudent to TRAIN Australians rather than import skills.

It may, Matty, but we have a declining population. We don't have enough people who want to become nurses, maths teachers, engineers, IT professionals, etc, so we import them to keep economic growth going.

Australia has had over 20 years of unbroken economic growth. We're the only developed country in the world to achieve this. Apart from two mining booms driven by China, Australia has achieved this solely through immigration - housing construction, real estate and financial services currently drive the economy. Stamp duty makes up the bulk of state revenues in high growth cities like Sydney. Without immigration, we wouldn't have a real estate boom, we'd have a rapidly aging population in long-term recession and economic decline - like Japan.

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Ashley Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 526	Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia? Reply #16 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:32pm Got any stats to back up that hilarious "This is how it is" . I thought not. If you need a helping hand just make it all up eh .
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #17 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74702 Gender:	Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia? Reply #18 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm Ashley wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:18am: yet I have met doctors, electronics engineers, and so called teachers who have walked right in degrees unchecked. I'm calling bullshit
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GordyL

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #19 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:50pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 10:58am:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Australia has a skilled migration program. It's probably one of the hardest assessments anyone will ever do, and it takes years. The skills required are regularly updated, applicants need to show they have these skills, professions, trades, etc, and the relevant professional body in Australia needs to approve them too. After that, applicants need to pass an English test, post a bond, and show they have enough funds to live for 12 months.

We take in about 180,000 immigrants a year, give or take. Family reunion visas used to be another entry pathway, but these are becoming increasingly difficult. Spousal visas continue, but they only apply to Australian citizens. They are an arduous process too.

Immigrants (not citizens) can be deported at any time if they commit a crime with a penalty of more than a year in jail. The current immigration minister is using this provision with glee. New Zealanders are not too happy about this.

Australia is one of the hardest countries in the world to get into. We have the highest immigration standards in the world. We were the first, for example, to introduce a skilled migration program.

You're saying we should abandon skilled migration in favour of a racially based migration program, but unfortunately, the races you want to import live in comfortable countries themselves. Why would 180,000 Canadian/Yid doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, etc, move to Australia? Why would 1 Canadian Yid come here?

Do you want to answer that one, Gordy?

Where did I say I want to abandon skilled migration.

I want to examine if there is actually any upside choosing a Muslim when we have 2 equally skilled applicants, a Muslim and a non-Muslim.

The downside is the Muslim may be an Islamist or a Jihadist and once they have that magic piece of paper they're in.

We also have the very real problem of their born here children who are becoming radicalized.

This downside is not an issue with any other group.
So is there any upside I'm not aware of?

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #20 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm

The issue with Muslims is their total lack of integration. A non muslim male can't marry a muslim woman, they won't eat our food unless it blessed by allah, they hate democracy and a muslim male won't even shake a non muslim womans hand. In fact I'm even barred from looking at their womens hair and sometimes face. I hate these factors in any group of people and this crap should be barred from coming to our country. Division in society is a cancer.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 137841 Gender:	Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia? Reply #21 - May 6^th, 2016 at 12:56pm GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:50pm: I want to examine if there is actually any upside choosing a Muslim when we have 2 equally skilled applicants, a Muslim and a non-Muslim. The downside is the Muslim may be an Islamist or a Jihadist and once they have that magic piece of paper they're in.
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GordyL

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #22 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:18pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

Thanks for the Answer, Gandalf.

For the sake of the discussion I'm assuming the same levels of criminality for all nationalities are equal, otherwise we could fill 10 pages up about whether Chinese triads and Albanian white slave traders etc.

So we're totally separating crimes done by Muslims with Islamisim and Jihadists.

I also take your point on Indonesian and Malay Muslims.

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Jolly Roger Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 189 Gender:	Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia? Reply #23 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:22pm John Smith wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm: Ashley wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:18am: yet I have met doctors, electronics engineers, and so called teachers who have walked right in degrees unchecked. I'm calling bullshit Did they answer ? Do they only answer to looney apologists ?
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John Smith

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #24 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:23pm

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:22pm:

John Smith wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

Ashley wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:18am:

yet I have met doctors, electronics engineers, and so called teachers who have walked right in degrees unchecked.

I'm calling bullshit

Did they answer ?

Do they only answer to looney apologists ?

yes ..................... as soon as you read it Grin

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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Jolly Roger

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #25 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm

John Smith wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:23pm:

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:22pm:

John Smith wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

Ashley wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:18am:

yet I have met doctors, electronics engineers, and so called teachers who have walked right in degrees unchecked.

I'm calling bullshit

Did they answer ?

Do they only answer to looney apologists ?

yes ..................... as soon as you read it Grin

You know that would actually be funny if it actually made sense retard. Cheesy

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Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #26 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

Gordy's already shown that he doesn't care about just Muslim immigration. Gordy's case is against Leb immigration, Mexican immigration, Islander and African and tinted immigration.

Canadian Yid immigration is okay.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #27 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:25pm

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm:

John Smith wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:23pm:

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:22pm:

John Smith wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:48pm:

Ashley wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:18am:

yet I have met doctors, electronics engineers, and so called teachers who have walked right in degrees unchecked.

I'm calling bullshit

Did they answer ?

Do they only answer to looney apologists ?

yes ..................... as soon as you read it Grin

You know that would actually be funny if it actually made sense retard. Cheesy

It is a jolly world, no?

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Jolly Roger

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #28 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:26pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

Gordy's already shown that he doesn't care about just Muslim immigration. Gordy's case is against Leb immigration, Mexican immigration, Islander and African and tinted immigration.

Canadian Yid immigration is okay.

What are you, the third wheel in every conversation now?

Always the bridesmaid never the bride. Grin

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Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #29 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:29pm

Mr Hammer wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

The issue with Muslims is their total lack of integration. A non muslim male can't marry a muslim woman, they won't eat our food unless it blessed by allah, they hate democracy and a muslim male won't even shake a non muslim womans hand. In fact I'm even barred from looking at their womens hair and sometimes face. I hate these factors in any group of people and this crap should be barred from coming to our country. Division in society is a cancer.

Strange. I know quite a few Muslims married to non-Muslims, who vote and get elected to parliament or council in our democracy, eat non-blessed-by-Allah food and who shake women's hands.

You know them too, remember?

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