Australian Politics Forum - Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?

Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #30 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:30pm

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:26pm:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

Gordy's already shown that he doesn't care about just Muslim immigration. Gordy's case is against Leb immigration, Mexican immigration, Islander and African and tinted immigration.

Canadian Yid immigration is okay.

What are you, the third wheel in every conversation now?

Always the bridesmaid never the bride. Grin

Now now, Matty, I'll always have the old boy. He's my loving wife.

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Jolly Roger Full Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 189 Gender:	Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia? Reply #31 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:36pm Shucks I struck a nerve with a pakistani muslim housewife who sits on online forums all day in granville. How shall I recover. Three mallah snackbars and bend over in front of my mate and do a fart ?
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GordyL

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #32 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:38pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

Gordy's already shown that he doesn't care about just Muslim immigration. Gordy's case is against Leb immigration, Mexican immigration, Islander and African and tinted immigration.

Canadian Yid immigration is okay.

I like your default response to avoid hard answers.

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Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96197 Gender:	Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia? Reply #33 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:38pm Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:36pm: How shall I recover. Three mallah snackbars and bend over in front of my mate and do a fart ? Oh, you always bend over for moi, dear. A fart would be lovely.
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Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #34 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:39pm

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:38pm:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:24pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:41pm:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

This isn't a factor we have to worry about with any other group.

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Thats a pretty vacuous argument Gordy. Unless you're making the case that our entire immigration program is a net-negative, you're basically saying the risk of violent jihadism is too much - but the risk of triad drug crime, slave-trading, mafia organised crime, Islander street violence and all the other problems that come with non-muslim immigration is ok.

Here's a radical, and I'm sure here, controversial, proposition for you: the risk of jihadism that comes from muslim immigration pales in comparison to (for example) the risk of triad gang-related crime that comes with Chinese immigration. But the point should be obvious: the proportion of triad criminals - or even other non-triad criminals that infiltrate Australia via our Chinese-immigration program is miniscule (even if its probably greater than the proportion of jihadists amongst the muslim immigrants), such that it would simply be insane to conclude that the program is a net-negative.

In any case, with the muslims we're not even talking about a specific nationality - but 10s and 10s of source countries, including those with muslim minorities. For example, Indian immigration has undoubtedly given us an enormous boost in certain technical areas such as engineering and medicine - skills mind you, which seem to be constant short supply here. Now good luck with picking through all those immigrants and making a convincing case that its only the non-muslims amongst them that are contributing positively, and that the muslims are mostly a) useless and b) jihadist firekegs waiting to blow. And then you have acknowledge the muslim immigrants who come from places where jihadism simply isn't an issue - like Malaysia and Indonesia.

So if you insist on engaging in such a shallow "upside or downside" dichotomy towards muslim immigration, at least be a bit smart about it - identify specific regions like Syria or Afghanistan, and don't lump the rest of them in with them. And also if you go down this route, at least be honest and concede that you also have to start examining every other immigrant group and acknowledging that they aren't any better - based on the criteria you are using (the threat of violence).

Gordy's already shown that he doesn't care about just Muslim immigration. Gordy's case is against Leb immigration, Mexican immigration, Islander and African and tinted immigration.

Canadian Yid immigration is okay.

I like your default response to avoid hard answers.

Thanks, Matty. And I like your hard questions:

Quote:

How shall I recover. Three mallah snackbars and bend over in front of my mate and do a fart ?

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GordyL

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #35 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:40pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:38pm:

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:36pm:

How shall I recover. Three mallah snackbars and bend over in front of my mate and do a fart ?

Oh, you always bend over for moi, dear.

A fart would be lovely.

Are you still concussed from that whack in the head with a cricket bat?

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Where the Cows go Bong!
and the monkeys all say BOO!

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...

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #36 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:47pm

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:20am:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:15am:

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:13am:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:11am:

Sorry about that, Honky. I should have been more clear.

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:08am:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 10:58am:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Australia has a skilled migration program. It's probably one of the hardest assessments anyone will ever do, and it takes years. The skills required are regularly updated, applicants need to show they have these skills, professions, trades, etc, and the relevant professional body in Australia needs to approve them too. After that, applicants need to pass an English test, post a bond, and show they have enough funds to live for 12 months.

We take in about 180,000 immigrants a year, give or take. Family reunion visas used to be another entry pathway, but these are becoming increasingly difficult. Spousal visas continue, but they only apply to Australian citizens. They are an arduous process too.

Immigrants (not citizens) can be deported at any time if they commit a crime with a penalty of more than a year in jail. The current immigration minister is using this provision with glee. New Zealanders are not too happy about this.

Australia is one of the hardest countries in the world to get into. We have the highest immigration standards in the world. We were the first, for example, to introduce a skilled migration program.

You're saying we should abandon skilled migration in favour of a racially based migration program, but unfortunately, the races you want to import live in comfortable countries themselves. Why would 180,000 Canadian/Yid doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, etc, move to Australia? Why would 1 Canadian Yid come here?

Do you want to answer that one, Gordy?

You didn't answer the question.

Yes, you should have.

And you still haven't answered the question.

Cunning, no? Would you like to ask me a question?

Sure:

Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?

And he still hasn't answered. What could this mean?

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In the fullness of time...

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Jolly Roger

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #37 - May 6^th, 2016 at 1:53pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:38pm:

Jolly Roger wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:36pm:

How shall I recover. Three mallah snackbars and bend over in front of my mate and do a fart ?

Oh, you always bend over for moi, dear.

A fart would be lovely.

Two nerves struck in one day, lets go for a hat trick.

I am still not convinced karnal can tell the difference of the smell of a turd and herself.

Most muslims have that problem.

Most noticeable when the muslim retards like this thing rides public transport.

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Karnal

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #38 - May 6^th, 2016 at 2:26pm

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:47pm:

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:20am:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:15am:

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:13am:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:11am:

Sorry about that, Honky. I should have been more clear.

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 11:08am:

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 10:58am:

GordyL wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

So it has to be asked, where is the upside for Australia if we can source equally capable immigrants from every corner of the globe who DON'T have this negative aspect?

Australia has a skilled migration program. It's probably one of the hardest assessments anyone will ever do, and it takes years. The skills required are regularly updated, applicants need to show they have these skills, professions, trades, etc, and the relevant professional body in Australia needs to approve them too. After that, applicants need to pass an English test, post a bond, and show they have enough funds to live for 12 months.

We take in about 180,000 immigrants a year, give or take. Family reunion visas used to be another entry pathway, but these are becoming increasingly difficult. Spousal visas continue, but they only apply to Australian citizens. They are an arduous process too.

Immigrants (not citizens) can be deported at any time if they commit a crime with a penalty of more than a year in jail. The current immigration minister is using this provision with glee. New Zealanders are not too happy about this.

Australia is one of the hardest countries in the world to get into. We have the highest immigration standards in the world. We were the first, for example, to introduce a skilled migration program.

You're saying we should abandon skilled migration in favour of a racially based migration program, but unfortunately, the races you want to import live in comfortable countries themselves. Why would 180,000 Canadian/Yid doctors, nurses, teachers, engineers, etc, move to Australia? Why would 1 Canadian Yid come here?

Do you want to answer that one, Gordy?

You didn't answer the question.

Yes, you should have.

And you still haven't answered the question.

Cunning, no? Would you like to ask me a question?

Sure:

Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?

And he still hasn't answered. What could this mean?

It can only mean one thing, Honky. Google: taqiyya.

I'm not sure if you read my rather values-neutral response above. Immigration has a net benefit for Australia. We would be in recession without it. This means we'd lose our AAA credit rating, the AUD would go down, terms of trade would rise, interest rates would rise, unemployment would rise, costs for services and imports would rise, and on and on.

As you know, I live in an area with plenty of Muslims. I have a Leb Muslim prayer hall on my street. I have no problem with any of them - very polite, very good neighbours. We also have Turks, Chinks, and plenty of Curries. I have no problem with any of them either.

When I dropped my wallet, a Chink neighbor handed it in to the local cop station. All the money was there. When Australia Post can't read a simple house number and deliver my parcels to the Curries over the road, they always drop them round. The Muslim Lebs are careful not to park in anyone's driveways. Their silent prayer actually brings a sense of calm to the place.

I don't know about you, but these are just the sort of neighbours I want, so sure, what's bad about any of this immigration? I don't have a preference for Muslims or Curries or Chinks, but I do shop in the Chink grocery stores, so I'm partially favourable to them. There's a late-night Gozlome place up the road now, so I'm partial to the Turks as well. I travel to India regularly, so I always have something to chat about with the local Curry hairdresser. My local Leb Muslim dentist does a great job - far better than my previous Aussie one.

You've heard all this. I've told you many times. If you want me to keep repeating this answer for the next 8 years, just let me know. If something changes, rest assured that I will fill you in.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #39 - May 6^th, 2016 at 2:41pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 1:29pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 12:55pm:

The issue with Muslims is their total lack of integration. A non muslim male can't marry a muslim woman, they won't eat our food unless it blessed by allah, they hate democracy and a muslim male won't even shake a non muslim womans hand. In fact I'm even barred from looking at their womens hair and sometimes face. I hate these factors in any group of people and this crap should be barred from coming to our country. Division in society is a cancer.

Strange. I know quite a few Muslims married to non-Muslims, who vote and get elected to parliament or council in our democracy, eat non-blessed-by-Allah food and who shake women's hands.

You know them too, remember?

So you know of a non muslim male married to a muslim woman hey. Bullcrap you do.

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...

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #40 - May 6^th, 2016 at 2:41pm

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

Immigration has a net benefit for Australia. We would be in recession without it. This means we'd lose our AAA credit rating, the AUD would go down, terms of trade would rise, interest rates would rise, unemployment would rise, costs for services and imports would rise, and on and on.

Which is only "good" if you're a globalist. Which I am not. But we will move on.

Karnal wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:26pm:

When I dropped my wallet, a Chink neighbor handed it in to the local cop station. All the money was there. When Australia Post can't read a simple house number and deliver my parcels to the Curries over the road, they always drop them round. The Muslim Lebs are careful not to park in anyone's driveways. Their silent prayer actually brings a sense of calm to the place.

You can look at it this way, but it's not completely honest (what a surprise!) I've not been beaten or robbed by many times more abos than those I have been beaten or robbed by. Does this mean abos are great? Just like you or I? No - they still fill our prisons, drain our wallets and assault our senses.

When you set a low enough bar, such as not parking in your bloody driveway, just about anyone can pass it. I've seen muslims be applauded on this forum, simply for watching Hollywood movies, playing video games and eating mcdonalds - anyone else admitting to these would (rightly) be called a loser and implored to lift their game.

What you've done is taken a very minimal standard of decency - far below what you'd expect of Aussie Joe - and called it an "upside". For it to be honestly called an upside, it has to actually deliver a benefit, over and above what we would have without them, rather than simply not being catastrophically bad. Usually the only upside people can think of is "other types of food" but arabs don't even have that. Their food is universally poo, even your precious gozleme.

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« Last Edit: May 6^th, 2016 at 2:54pm by ... »

In the fullness of time...

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #41 - May 6^th, 2016 at 2:56pm

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Which is only "good" if you're a globalist. Which I am not. But we will move on.

Actually you are a globalist Honk, we all are. We have no choice - we literally couldn't exist in this society with our standard of living without being a globalist. And the point K made was that it is basically all propped up by immigration. The western world simply hasn't come up with a model for prosperity that doesn't rely so heavilly on mass immigration. And my point is that since muslim immigrants exist in just about every immigrant source nation, it is simply absurd to suggest they can be separated out and excluded entirely from the program. You'd have better luck focusing on specific nations - while at the same time acknowledging that some muslim nations like Indonesia and Malaysia are no problem whatsoever.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Ashley

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #42 - May 6^th, 2016 at 3:02pm

You may like to think so to serve your purpose.

We are not all globalists at all, nor do we need any immigration. Nor are we propped up by immigration. Immigrants might like to think so. The only reason they were allowed in in the first place was for votes. Yeah it was a good idea by the parties so desperate at the time.

Removing muslims from the equation would mean diddly squat.

We need muslims in this country like we need a hole in the head.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #43 - May 6^th, 2016 at 3:03pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Which is only "good" if you're a globalist. Which I am not. But we will move on.

Actually you are a globalist Honk, we all are. We have no choice - we literally couldn't exist in this society with our standard of living without being a globalist. And the point K made was that it is basically all propped up by immigration. The western world simply hasn't come up with a model for prosperity that doesn't rely so heavilly on mass immigration. And my point is that since muslim immigrants exist in just about every immigrant source nation, it is simply absurd to suggest they can be separated out and excluded entirely from the program. You'd have better luck focusing on specific nations - while at the same time acknowledging that some muslim nations like Indonesia and Malaysia are no problem whatsoever.

Australia was moving along just fine as a monoculture. It even survived the great depression without mass immigration.

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...

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Re: Muslim Immigration: Any upside for Australia?
Reply #44 - May 6^th, 2016 at 3:06pm

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

... wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:41pm:

Which is only "good" if you're a globalist. Which I am not. But we will move on.

Actually you are a globalist Honk, we all are. We have no choice - we literally couldn't exist in this society with our standard of living without being a globalist.

Which might mean I wouldn't have to actively seek out artificial hardship, like I do.

It'd definitely mean I wouldn't get as frustrated at the softness of my compatriots as I do.

Comfort, luxury and decadence are not all that is good in life.

polite_gandalf wrote on May 6^th, 2016 at 2:56pm:

And my point is that since muslim immigrants exist in just about every immigrant source nation, it is simply absurd to suggest they can be separated out and excluded entirely from the program. You'd have better luck focusing on specific nations - while at the same time acknowledging that some muslim nations like Indonesia and Malaysia are no problem whatsoever.

Yes, I do agree. It's just easier to go along with the more acceptable proxy argument of "no moslems" than it is to reframe it with the more accurate "no arabs".

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In the fullness of time...

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