Australian Politics Forum - WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?

Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #60 - May 14^th, 2016 at 8:41pm

Webtoad wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:22pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 2:06pm:

Webtoad wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 12:07pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Webtoad wrote on May 13^th, 2016 at 8:13pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 13^th, 2016 at 8:06pm:

How Much, dear Webtoad, would you be prepared to work for on Sunday... I've got a job for you swilling out the pig sty - $10 an hour....

See ya Sunday..... hours of work are right when the football is on...... and your family can picnic on their own without you.. OK? Grin

If I needed the money, then yes.

I don't get why one person who has worked 5 hours for the whole week (albeit on a Sunday) should be paid a ridiculously high wage for what is in essence a simple job. It doesn't add up.

Maybe they've got four kids to support and they haven't the OPPORTUNITY to actually get a job that will pay them enough to live on, and nobody will give them a full-time REAL job any more? So they take whatever they can get which is working Sunday for fivew hours at $50 an hour?

How many job vacancies are YOU offering?

How old are you? Where you Bin, Laden?

I'm not talking about overtime. I am talking about working less than 40 hours a week.

Once you get beyond 40 hours a week then you can start thinking about overtime perhaps.

Does Parliament sit on Sundays? Do the members of boards meet on Sundays? The issue isn't the number of hours worked - it is on what day of the week they are worked. If Sunday and Saturday are just another day why are all the big entertainment things scheduled for weekends?

Why are most other people strolling around and buying coffee instead of working?

Nope. In the 21st century it should be based on number of hours worked (with one employer) per week regardless of what day they are worked or what period of the day they are worked. Minimum 3 hours per shift still.

Well over 800,000 fully unemployed times about two who would prefer more hours in a part-time casual environment..... and you feel that people should simply be forced to accept any conditions at all, and that there are all these jobs out there just waiting for them - sorry, but the realities of Sunday work etc have been laid out for you already.

All these whining businesses wouldn't open on Sundays if it was not profitable.

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crocodile

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #61 - May 14^th, 2016 at 9:29pm

Dnarever wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:44pm:

crocodile wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 5:24pm:

Its time wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 4:48pm:

crocodile wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 4:03pm:

Webtoad wrote on May 13^th, 2016 at 7:19pm:

I for one would support the return of Workchoices.

Why ?

The issue of falling real wages is a productivity one. How does the drive to lower wages fix a productivity problem.

Far better to fix the cause rather than the effect.

And how do you do that, apart from sacking a whole lotta useless managers that is

After reading this board for so long you should have some understanding of productivity.

Labour productivity = Production per unit of labour input.
Capital productivity = Production per unit of capital input.

Sacking managers fixes neither of the above.

Labour productivity has been growing. Capital productivity has been slipping away for nearly two decades. Growth in Labour productivity is formed by the rollout of technology that provisions the worker with the tools to increase production for the equivalent amount of labour. The slide in capital productivity means that each increment of labour productivity is chewing up ever increasing amounts of capital. Address this and real wages will once again grow.

There is a difference between the technical terms of productivity in economic terms and if a business is productive or not, levels of overhead costs that produce nothing do damage productivity.

On second thoughts it does also impact Labour productivity for that reason, carrying unproductive units of Labour fits your definition.

That's all well and good but labour productivity has been growing and continues to grow for a very long time. There isn't much evidence to support the carriage of unproductive units of labour lest you would see it decline. Capital productivity performance in more recent times has been abysmal.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #62 - May 14^th, 2016 at 9:50pm

Economics demands that in order to produce and sell a product, a market is required.... that market is the people who earn enough to buy the product.

Ergo - there is a balance between wages and prosperity for a company, and it is not as simple as some would like to make out it is. No company is a closed environment and therefore there always have been rules about pay rates and such - the overall benefit is derived from a prosperous working group buying within its own economic sphere, and that can only be achieved by having work available at a fair rate of return.

I've already done the very dire situation for you, of the emerging Asian nations finally arriving at wage parity with We of the West - at which point all markets movement of goods will stop, for the simple reason that without disparity in incomes, no product can be produced and then shipped offshore to generate profit.

When We Of The West have been reduced to wage minions on lower than Asian rates, as a matter of pure survival, then will begin The Greatest Depression, followed by World War IV, which, fortunately due to the massive reduction in easy energy from petroleum, will be more limited than you imagine. Air power will be virtually non-existent, and battle spheres will be much more limited in scope, along with movements of troops etc being much slower. In fact, a situation not far different from the American Civil War - which is a basic point in my developing book series.

I am currently working on a World War IV series and this forum is a great avenue for ideas and thoughts.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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crocodile

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #63 - May 14^th, 2016 at 10:09pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

Economics demands that in order to produce and sell a product, a market is required.... that market is the people who earn enough to buy the product.

Ergo - there is a balance between wages and prosperity for a company, and it is not as simple as some would like to make out it is. No company is a closed environment and therefore there always have been rules about pay rates and such - the overall benefit is derived from a prosperous working group buying within its own economic sphere, and that can only be achieved by having work available at a fair rate of return.

I've already done the very dire situation for you, of the emerging Asian nations finally arriving at wage parity with We of the West - at which point all markets movement of goods will stop, for the simple reason that without disparity in incomes, no product can be produced and then shipped offshore to generate profit.

When We Of The West have been reduced to wage minions on lower than Asian rates, as a matter of pure survival, then will begin The Greatest Depression, followed by World War IV, which, fortunately due to the massive reduction in easy energy from petroleum, will be more limited than you imagine. Air power will be virtually non-existent, and battle spheres will be much more limited in scope, along with movements of troops etc being much slower. In fact, a situation not far different from the American Civil War - which is a basic point in my developing book series.

I am currently working on a World War IV series and this forum is a great avenue for ideas and thoughts.

David Ricardo had all the above you mention worked out over 200 years ago. You should read his précis on the laws of comparative advantage and his work on economic rents. The gloomy picture you paint doesn't eventuate.

By the way, the closing gap re wages is a direct result of their growing productivity gaining ground on our falling productivity. In the end, it's all about productivity.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Webtoad Senior Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 266 Gender:	Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN? Reply #64 - May 15^th, 2016 at 3:21pm Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:56pm: John Smith wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:37pm: Webtoad wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:23pm: as do many professionals. professionals get an allowance for that as part f their salary Hardly. This
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crocodile

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #65 - May 15^th, 2016 at 3:52pm

Webtoad wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Andrei.Hicks wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:56pm:

John Smith wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:37pm:

Webtoad wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:23pm:

as do many professionals.

professionals get an allowance for that as part f their salary

Hardly.

This

Good, next time your dunny blocks up on a Sunday arvo and turds are coming out of your kitchen sink try getting a plumber to attend at the Monday rate.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 58667 Here Gender:	Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN? Reply #66 - May 15^th, 2016 at 8:29pm John Smith wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:37pm: Webtoad wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 7:23pm: as do many professionals. professionals get an allowance for that as part f their salary They are also compensated for penalty rates for shifts that they will never work in all probability.
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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #67 - May 15^th, 2016 at 8:48pm

crocodile wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 10:09pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

Economics demands that in order to produce and sell a product, a market is required.... that market is the people who earn enough to buy the product.

Ergo - there is a balance between wages and prosperity for a company, and it is not as simple as some would like to make out it is. No company is a closed environment and therefore there always have been rules about pay rates and such - the overall benefit is derived from a prosperous working group buying within its own economic sphere, and that can only be achieved by having work available at a fair rate of return.

I've already done the very dire situation for you, of the emerging Asian nations finally arriving at wage parity with We of the West - at which point all markets movement of goods will stop, for the simple reason that without disparity in incomes, no product can be produced and then shipped offshore to generate profit.

When We Of The West have been reduced to wage minions on lower than Asian rates, as a matter of pure survival, then will begin The Greatest Depression, followed by World War IV, which, fortunately due to the massive reduction in easy energy from petroleum, will be more limited than you imagine. Air power will be virtually non-existent, and battle spheres will be much more limited in scope, along with movements of troops etc being much slower. In fact, a situation not far different from the American Civil War - which is a basic point in my developing book series.

I am currently working on a World War IV series and this forum is a great avenue for ideas and thoughts.

David Ricardo had all the above you mention worked out over 200 years ago. You should read his précis on the laws of comparative advantage and his work on economic rents. The gloomy picture you paint doesn't eventuate.

By the way, the closing gap re wages is a direct result of their growing productivity gaining ground on our falling productivity. In the end, it's all about productivity.

I would suggest that the only reason the Great Disaster hasn't happened more than a few times is because the rules are constantly changed.

Did David Ricardo cover The Great Depression and World War II, WW II being the saviour of the economic world.....

Does every national economy in the world play by the same rules? I think not.

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“Facts are stubborn things; and whatever may be our wishes, our inclinations, or the dictates of our passion, they cannot alter the state of facts and evidence.”
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crocodile

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #68 - May 15^th, 2016 at 10:20pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 8:48pm:

crocodile wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 10:09pm:

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 14^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

Economics demands that in order to produce and sell a product, a market is required.... that market is the people who earn enough to buy the product.

Ergo - there is a balance between wages and prosperity for a company, and it is not as simple as some would like to make out it is. No company is a closed environment and therefore there always have been rules about pay rates and such - the overall benefit is derived from a prosperous working group buying within its own economic sphere, and that can only be achieved by having work available at a fair rate of return.

I've already done the very dire situation for you, of the emerging Asian nations finally arriving at wage parity with We of the West - at which point all markets movement of goods will stop, for the simple reason that without disparity in incomes, no product can be produced and then shipped offshore to generate profit.

When We Of The West have been reduced to wage minions on lower than Asian rates, as a matter of pure survival, then will begin The Greatest Depression, followed by World War IV, which, fortunately due to the massive reduction in easy energy from petroleum, will be more limited than you imagine. Air power will be virtually non-existent, and battle spheres will be much more limited in scope, along with movements of troops etc being much slower. In fact, a situation not far different from the American Civil War - which is a basic point in my developing book series.

I am currently working on a World War IV series and this forum is a great avenue for ideas and thoughts.

David Ricardo had all the above you mention worked out over 200 years ago. You should read his précis on the laws of comparative advantage and his work on economic rents. The gloomy picture you paint doesn't eventuate.

By the way, the closing gap re wages is a direct result of their growing productivity gaining ground on our falling productivity. In the end, it's all about productivity.

I would suggest that the only reason the Great Disaster hasn't happened more than a few times is because the rules are constantly changed.

Did David Ricardo cover The Great Depression and World War II, WW II being the saviour of the economic world.....

Does every national economy in the world play by the same rules? I think not.

The rules as you put it haven't changed much over time at all. The understanding of them may certainly have changed. For instance, the laws surrounding supply and demand were first analysed in detail way back in the 14th century by Ibn Khaldun. Really, they are just as valid today as they were back then. We just understand a little better today ( Except for our illustrious pollies that is ). Incidentally, the recovery from WWII is a perfect example of Ricardo's comparative advantage summation.

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #69 - May 15^th, 2016 at 10:25pm

Unfortunately this "comparative advantage summation" is predicated on an endless turnover in suffering for some to benefit others..... a perpetual de-stabilising influence and root cause of conflict, both internal and international, with the inevitable result being large-scale warfare at intervals.

Put simply - it may well be a nice summation - but it is a(nother) failed economic theory.

I'm sorry to advise that facile comments, such as 'it's our turn in the barrel' simply will not wash when you are discussing the future of my children and grand-children, for whom I fought and sacrificed so very much, so they could have a better life than I did.

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crocodile

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #70 - May 15^th, 2016 at 11:47pm

Grappler Truth Teller Feller wrote on May 15^th, 2016 at 10:25pm:

Unfortunately this "comparative advantage summation" is predicated on an endless turnover in suffering for some to benefit others..... a perpetual de-stabilising influence and root cause of conflict, both internal and international, with the inevitable result being large-scale warfare at intervals.

Grapples, you're just rambling nonsense now. I'd suggest major conflicts occur for other reasons than those expounded in comparative advantage. Are you suggesting that less trade between provinces leads to less conflict. I don't think so.

Put simply - it may well be a nice summation - but it is a(nother) failed economic theory.

You must be kidding. Blokes have been flogging each other long before the idea of trade was known.

I'm sorry to advise that facile comments, such as 'it's our turn in the barrel' simply will not wash when you are discussing the future of my children and grand-children, for whom I fought and sacrificed so very much, so they could have a better life than I did.

Nobody mentioned "turns in the barrel"

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Very funny Scotty, now beam down my clothes.

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #71 - May 16^th, 2016 at 1:44am

No - the breakdown of trade creates conflicts. While this paradigm may explain things that occur - it does not resolve the issues of permanent disadvantage/advantage/comparative advantage - and thus are a root cause of conflict and lack of stability/security.

Couple your studies to security issues and terrorism/counter-terrorism, and you will see what I mean.

You can look at the following scenario:-

A native of Bloggistan may be content to harvest camel gonads and coconut leaves for supper, and knows no other way, since this has been handed down from generation to generation. Along comes someone who says :- "I can provide you with camel gonads and coconut leaves at a far lower cost to you than actually harvesting them!"

So a deal is struck.

After a while the Bloggistani begins to see that HE would be better off in providing the market with excess camel gonads and coconut leaves... so he organises the collection of those to develop a base from which to TRADE.

Now let us go back a moment....

That Bloggistani originally entered into the trade agreement because his labour in harvesting CGs and CLs was more than he could buy them for.... so that leaves the OTHER Bloggistanis that he recruits to harvest CGs and CLs in the position of having to do the hard work. In return for this he gives them a share of the return on his selling of CGs and CLs in the now open market, in which he is now competing with his own original supplier.

So we already have an 'oppressed' segment of society - those Bloggistanis who are now forced to harvest CGs and CLs or starve.

Anyway - our original Bloggistani and HIS original supplier are now competing...... and there is only a limited market share, so they will lower prices and shuffle all kinds of things in order to stay on top in this contest.

The competition builds and eventually becomes aggression. (meanwhile, under a conflicting market situation where market share is increasingly intruded into by other CG and CL suppliers - the harvesting Bloggistanis are worse and worse off... since their share of the smaller pie is smaller... and smaller.)

Eventually a situation arrives in which the original supplier and the Bloggistani entrepreneur are now totally opposed to one another..... and the market is continually eroded by more and more suppliers entering the market......

So one or the other determines that the ONLY way to restore market dominance or even market parity is.... to go to war and demolish or take over other suppliers (Greater Far East Co-Prosperity Sphere), either by force or by cunning.

Meanwhile unrest is brewing at home, since the harvesting Bloggistanis are working harder now to sustain the market and the war effort..... and once the war is resolved.... those Bloggistanis, who have carried the heaviest burden in that war... now feel entitled to more share of the pie left over.

You see what I'm saying with regard to national and international security?

A perpetuation of an imbalance is a certain guarantee of national and international in-Security and de-stabilisation, and never more so than when that imbalance is constantly shifting between competing regions and even countries.

Me rave?

Never gonna happen in this lifetime.... I know far too much....

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Grappler Truth Teller Feller Gold Member Online Australian Politics Posts: 84850 Proud pre-1850's NO Voter Gender:	Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN? Reply #72 - May 16^th, 2016 at 1:47am Bed time.....
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aquascoot

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Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN?
Reply #73 - May 16^th, 2016 at 6:26am

If you live in australia and it isnt going well for you , you need to focus on developing a positive psychology.

By the law of state transference, you will become what you think and you will become the people you interact with.

success does attract success.

there is a saying that is very true.

The hungry never get fed.

become a positive powerful influential person with a great attitude and success will be drawn to you. it is a law as universal as the law of gravity that says mass will be drawn to you.

Fear about workchoices , is, at its core, a "limiting belief",
It is a belief that "if i am to be examined for the value i bring to the workplace, my income will drop, as i am not a valuable person"

This is a horrible , fearful, and anxious way to live your life.

work on yourself, work on your skills, wake up every morning and know you are "the sh*t"

when the boss calls you in for a session of enterprise bargaining, HIS mindset should be one of fear and anxiety....

how can i keep this valuable person,
the worker who is working correctly will be carefree and indifferent to the boss.
he will be playing "hard to get"
he will have the boss "chasing"

understand emotional intelligence, innovation and marketing.

Your union rep cant give this to you
Bill Shorten cant help you.
We live in a global jungle.

Embrace the challenge, man up, make love to the journey of improvement.
A Cry Baby narrative will not work at a party when trying to pull a chick. its repulsive.
A Cry Baby narrative is repulsive to an employer who wants to date you, in exactly the same way

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Sir Crook Ex Member	Re: WORKCHOICES WILL RETURN? Reply #74 - May 16^th, 2016 at 7:04am It was the Howard government that gave us Workchoices. Now they are where they belong, in the rubbish bin of history. With their stinking Workchoices.
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