Australian Politics Forum - Crazy Yanky gun laws

Panther

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #225 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 8:36pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 7:49pm:

Quote:

The Second Amendment does affirm that firearms were meant to be used for self-defense, & that the government is forbidden to infringe upon that Right of the People, both men & women.

The Govt. has a duty to defend us from insane madmen with firearms -
especially since we are not allowed to carry firearms to protect ourselves.

How else can they defend us except by making guns extremely difficult to obtain?

Well, abdicate your right to self-defense, & that's sad but true, you depend on government to protect everyone....all 22 million, against every evil (even government gone wild).....Who said when you need a cop immediately, one is only minutes away??

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Bobby.

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #226 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 8:39pm

Panther wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 8:36pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 7:49pm:

Quote:

The Second Amendment does affirm that firearms were meant to be used for self-defense, & that the government is forbidden to infringe upon that Right of the People, both men & women.

The Govt. has a duty to defend us from insane madmen with firearms -
especially since we are not allowed to carry firearms to protect ourselves.

How else can they defend us except by making guns extremely difficult to obtain?

Well, abdicate your right to self-defense, & that's sad but true, you depend on government to protect everyone....all 22 million, against every evil (even government gone wild).....Who said when you need a cop immediately, one is only minutes away??

But your idea of having drunken people with firearms inside night clubs & pubs is not a solution either.

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Panther

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #227 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 9:51pm

Bobby. wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 8:39pm:

Panther wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 8:36pm:

Bobby. wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 7:49pm:

Quote:

The Second Amendment does affirm that firearms were meant to be used for self-defense, & that the government is forbidden to infringe upon that Right of the People, both men & women.

The Govt. has a duty to defend us from insane madmen with firearms -
especially since we are not allowed to carry firearms to protect ourselves.

How else can they defend us except by making guns extremely difficult to obtain?

Well, abdicate your right to self-defense, & that's sad but true, you depend on government to protect everyone....all 22 million, against every evil (even government gone wild).....Who said when you need a cop immediately, one is only minutes away??

But your idea of having drunken people with firearms inside night clubs & pubs is not a solution either.

We're talking about in America, aren't we?

Were talking about over 21 year old Americans carrying a firearm in an American Dance Club who's entire staff & ownership is trained to keep a customer from getting drunk, & keep a customer looking suspect, possibly approaching being drunk, from being served further, & an American Culture which is acutely aware of firearm responsibility, after all over 300+ million guns amongst 200 million adults, & only 10,000 deaths a year....less than 1/2 of 1% compared to all deaths a year, where over 99+% of all legal handguns are never used illegally, tells you Americans are fully aware that with freedom comes a high level of responsibility, & how to respect firearms......

We're not talking about Australian pubs full of drunk 18 year olds, full of testosterone, 18 year olds who drink with the sole objective of getting blind drunk, itching for a fight because you wear a hat, or smile when you say excuse me to get by, or just look too happy for their liking, who if you thrust a firearm in their hands they wouldn't know which end the bullet comes out or gets put in, much less how to handle one responsibly.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 40713	Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws Reply #228 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 10:25pm Interesting way of justifying so many dead Americans, Panther.
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Lionel Edriess

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #229 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 11:19pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 10:25pm:

Interesting way of justifying so many dead Americans, Panther. Roll Eyes

Do me a favour, Brian, if you would.

I'm trying to identify an old side-by side 12ga. shotgun manufactured in the USA. The only identifying marks are a 'kangaroo gun' and 'nitro-proof' stamp.

Ideas?

It's probably an easier task than attempting to identify an old falling-block .32 rim-fire - marked 1900.

Oh, and a Remington Boy Scout falling-block .22.

Ta, heaps!

Buying ammo is a pain in the arse!

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Panther

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #230 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 11:26pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 10:25pm:

Interesting way of justifying so many dead Americans, Panther. Roll Eyes

Did no such thing, was just saying that with so many firearms per capita in America, if Americans didn't have as much respect as they do regarding firearms, the body count would be expected, IMHO, to be much higher.....Again, IMHO.

Since when does that signify any form of justification? Even the way I portrayed the numbers as I did, was in no way a justification of a number, only putting/stating that number in it's actual statistical prospective.

I said it before & I'll say it again......I don't think we should have the same availability of firearms here in Australia. I don't think our culture....not having been subject to firearms since nappy days as they are....hands on throughout childhood, through teens, into adulthood, I don't think our culture could handle the responsibilities of gun ownership on that large scale as the Americans do.

That said, I do think we should be allowed to have firearms specifically for self-defense, but much more in depth scrutiny should be employed for determining if an applicant meets the high level of psychological & intellectual competency necessary for approval of firearm ownership.

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« Last Edit: Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 11:32pm by Panther »

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Lionel Edriess

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #231 - Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 11:47pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 10:25pm:

Interesting way of justifying so many dead Americans, Panther. Roll Eyes

Ooooooh! Nice little spin there, Brian.

All those nasty guns killing Americans because of their lax gun laws.

Do we dare compare all those killed by American guns?

Or do we compare all that are not American killed by guns?

Cool

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Brian Ross

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #232 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 12:27am

Panther wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 11:26pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 10:25pm:

Interesting way of justifying so many dead Americans, Panther. Roll Eyes

Did no such thing, was just saying that with so many firearms per capita in America, if Americans didn't have as much respect as they do regarding firearms, the body count would be expected, IMHO, to be much higher.....Again, IMHO.

So, you're suggesting that the gun death rate would be higher if Americans didn't respect guns as well as they? Right, so how do you justify the high number of deaths? "The Blood of Patriots", argument? Roll Eyes

Quote:

That said, I do think we should be allowed to have firearms specifically for self-defense, but much more in depth scrutiny should be employed for determining if an applicant meets the high level of psychological & intellectual competency necessary for approval of firearm ownership.

I disagree with the first part of your statement. Guns are unnecessary for self-defence in Australia. This is not America, nor do most Australians want it to become like America. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #233 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 12:29am

Lionel Edriess wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 11:47pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 22^nd, 2016 at 10:25pm:

Interesting way of justifying so many dead Americans, Panther. Roll Eyes

Ooooooh! Nice little spin there, Brian.

All those nasty guns killing Americans because of their lax gun laws.

Do we dare compare all those killed by American guns?

Or do we compare all that are not American killed by guns?

Cool

Not my problem, Lionel. I just want to know how Panther justifies the high number of gun deaths in the USA.

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cods

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #234 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 8:45am

at least some are making a STAND read sit in..

40 American Congressmen sit on the floor of the house...

New Jersey Senator Cory Booker joined House Democrats on the floor earlier this afternoon, and if they’re still there later tonight after he attends an event, he plans to go back. House Democrats supported the Senate’s gun-control filibuster last week, and Booker intends to return the favor.

“We’re at a point now where the crisis before us—I think—necessitates us using our moral imagination in finding new ways” to come together on gun control, Booker told me. In his view, John Lewis’s role in the sit-in is of the utmost significance, and could bring outsized attention to Democrats’ efforts. He said a compromise in the Senate on gun control is an “impressive change” for that chamber, and “hope[s] you’ll see in the House some of the same movement you’re seeing in the Senate.”

“I can only hope that a moral giant like John Lewis, the activism of other members, the engagement of the American public as a whole, call to the conscientiousness of those who are resisting common-sense steps,” Booker said.

John Lewis ‏@repjohnlewis 6h6 hours ago
Act today for the victims of gun violence. Act today for their families. Act today for our nation who cries out for action.#holdthefloor

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Panther

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #235 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:08pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 12:29am:

I just want to know how Panther justifies the high number of gun deaths in the USA.

There isn't, as I stated, any justification......but if you need something to latch on to I'll try to accommodate you:

People die every day by all causes & means.

Bad men are born every day, crazy people are are born every day.

When they decide to kill, they devise a plan....they have used many diverse methods to accomplish their objectives.

We here....you & I....we are focusing only on those bad men & crazies who choose to use firearms, because it fits their plan.

Now, maybe not all the time they can get access to firearms, for many diverse reasons....& quite understandably you don't care about their backup plans, so we won't go there....but those that are motivated to obtain firearms, & if all the variables align, they will be successful.

If they succeed there will be a body count, maybe 1....maybe 2.....it all depends on their desired objectives....are their motives personal....are they after glory for allah....or are they just pissed off at the world & their office coworkers will be sufficient. Hell maybe they will do the world a favor, & just take themselves out....like better than 60% of all firearm homicide nutters do.

The guy in Orlando a week ago decided on a big tally....if he could have gotten more, maybe he would have, or if there was a bad guy who didn't obey the law & was carrying a firearm.....if he decided he wasn't going to let Mateen take him out, maybe the mass killer would have gotten far less....we'll never know.

Now, to make a long story shorter.....in a land of over 320 million, people are going to die......without going into all the ways, & by what means, or by what diseases, the ones we are talking about are the ones that die by being shot by either a bad guy, or a nutcase.....give or take 10,000 a year....sometimes 9,000 give or take....sometimes 11,000 give or take....

Sometimes the bad guys didn't plan on killing anyone, but hey, it just works out that somebody was in the wrong place, at the wrong time, someone gets killed.

The ones we see in the stats are the ones that had the misfortune of being shot.

Oh, I almost forgot, maybe it was a bad guy who shoots another bad guy.....you know...gang-bangers, mafia hit, contract killing......

Maybe it's a good cop taking out a bad guy committing a crime....in America, it's more likely a good guy with a gun taking out a bad guy with a gun during the commission of a crime.

Now, unless you can come up with a sure fire way to eliminate crime.....bust all the bad guys, or diagnose all the mentals & institutionalize them all, the above will happen year in year out.

The incidents are slowing....the homicide rate is dropping...slowly, but steadily (for whatever reason you choose), but as long as human beings roamm the planet, there will be homicide....there will be murder....& there will be front page news about mass murder.

You don't like that.....neither do I......but it is what it is.

In America, because of the culture it is, & the laws they live by, & the freedoms & liberty they enjoy, the world...including us here in Australia... will never see an end to these body counts up there, but we can hope they continue to go down.

Hopefully good law enforcement & healthcare will eliminate some of the people that commit these crimes, there by bumping down the numbers a bit.

And let's not forget education.....educate everyone on the safe use of firearms, & help silly/stupid mistakes become a smaller part of those statistics.

Gun Control is not a cure to the problem, it just makes it difficult for those innocent, law abiding gun owners to protect themselves & make a difference where they can......for themselves, their families, & their society.

In America, guns are there to stay......like it or not.....its a fact of life....it's the cost of their freedom, & they will live or die....one way or another, facing that reality.

Does it have to be?

In your mind
no
.....in America's mind
yes
....& in the end it's theirs to do with what they wish.

..

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Prime Minister for Canyons Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 26906 Canberra Gender:	Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws Reply #236 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:18pm ANd yet when other things cause significant death numbers, we regulate them.
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Panther

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #237 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:23pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:18pm:

ANd yet when other things cause significant death numbers, we regulate them.

You & I.....we are the we in your statement........we can't force Americans to do something they don't want to do.....it's up to them to do their thing....we can only sit idly by & witness what goes on there.

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Prime Minister for Canyons

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #238 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:27pm

Panther wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:23pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:18pm:

ANd yet when other things cause significant death numbers, we regulate them.

You & I.....we are the we in your statement........we can't force Americans to do something they don't want to do.....it's up to them to do their thing....we can only sit idly by & witness what goes on there.

The Yanks still do it too.

A car has a significant flaw that causes deaths...regulatd and taken off market.
A legal drug kills patients.....taken off market
Availability of guns increases deaths....lets just get more guns

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In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)

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Panther

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Re: Crazy Yanky gun laws
Reply #239 - Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 2:33pm

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:27pm:

Panther wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:23pm:

Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jun 23^rd, 2016 at 1:18pm:

ANd yet when other things cause significant death numbers, we regulate them.

You & I.....we are the we in your statement........we can't force Americans to do something they don't want to do.....it's up to them to do their thing....we can only sit idly by & witness what goes on there.

The Yanks still do it too.

A car has a significant flaw that causes deaths...regulatd and taken off market.
A legal drug kills patients.....taken off market
Availability of guns increases deaths....lets just get more guns

Have it your way:

"Availability of guns increases deaths"

Let's start at 350 million guns. That's the "conservative" estimate....nobody knows for sure.

How would you convince law abiding Americans to amicably turn in all their guns?

Are you sure your simple methods will get them all?

If you miss any, if some don't get turned in, will they be a problem? After all, does it matter too much......guns owned by law abiding gun owners in America account for less than 1% of all gun homicides.

Now, how do you convince the bad guys....the mentally insane, the sickos, the career criminals to amicably turn in their guns.....after all, they are the ones that commit 99+% of the total gun homicides.

What percentage of those do you think you will get? If you don't get them all will they be a problem?

This is the important question.....because without the big news, mass murders, who notices America's crime statistics?

So, I'll ask.......How many guns did the Orlando Terrorist need to kill those 49 people in that Night Club? Lets say 3 (feel free to correct that)

In total.....how many guns did all the other mass killings in the last 50 years take?

Let's be generous....lets say 5 for each incident....so lets say there were 2,000 mass homicide/shooting incidents over 50 years. So lets be generous again & say 10,500 guns were used all up.(threw in a few extra to pad the numbers)

So for mass murders what was it.... 3 + 10,500 guns or 10,503 guns to cover mass homicide/shootings

Now, what was last years gun homicide/murder total.....about 10,000. Let's be generous & say 11,000 murders, & lets say the criminals (which includes the mentals too) use 3 guns each to accomplish they dastardly deeds.

So, what are we talking....33,000 firearms?

Lets make it 50,000 guns just for runs & giggles.

So, so far whats our total gun tally? 50,000 + 10,500 +3 = 60, 503 guns....

Over 61,000 (padded again) guns......geeez, that's a spanking big number.....until you figure that there are over 300,000,000 guns in circulation....where? Who knows....Who has them? Who knows.

But hey, we're stopping the killings aren't we?

We removed the 61,000 firearms, which only leaves 299,000,000 or so firearms for the bad guys & nutters to get a hold of.

Did you figure yet how many the good people who commit less than 1% of the gun crime turned in....3 million ....5 million.....20 million......100 million firearms....?

How many did the bad guys & nutters give up.....10....25....100. Being we didn't know how many they had from the get go....does it matter.

So, they've succeeded lowering the availability.....there are only a couple hundred million guns still out there....the pollies are pulling out their hair, & people are still getting killed, but now some of them are the good guys that turned in their guns because you said that availability needs to be reduced.....go figure.

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