Australian Politics Forum - Islamic victimhood industry steps it up

Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #45 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:10pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:08am:

Frank wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

2 minutes.

Stoning. The Grand Mufti defended that very point.

Well spotted.

Shame he's talking about zina (adultery) with regards to a married man.

Also, claiming that according to the sharia the punishment for a particular type of sexual act is death is not "wanting to kill gays" - not by a long shot.

Got anything else?

Zina doesn't mean adultery it means unlawful sex, consenting sex before marriage is called zina which attracts 100 lashes according to Allah.

Has the Grand Mufti ever criticised the death penalty for gays in Saudi Arabia or Iran, the Saudis use beheading to cure gays Iran hangs them.

The only time more than 500 imams have ever protested anything it wasn't killing and enslaving non muslims they were butthurt over gay marriage in the UK.

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Frank

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #46 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:13pm

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 7:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:08am:

Frank wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

2 minutes.

Stoning. The Grand Mufti defended that very point.

Well spotted.

Shame he's talking about zina (adultery) with regards to a married man.

Also, claiming that according to the sharia the punishment for a particular type of sexual act is death is not "wanting to kill gays" - not by a long shot.

Got anything else?

So all gays have to do to avoid being killed by Muslims under shariah law is enact gay marriage?

Exactly.

Gandalf, zina includes ALL non-marital sex, don't pretend otherwise. Why are you so reflexively dishonest about something so easily refuted? Zina is not about married men, you know that.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #47 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:27pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:50pm:

I think any attempt to call out Islamic teachings on homosexuality is the decent thing to do. The threat that this could lead to radicalization is quite sinister. This, it seems, is the Islamic establishment’s new stick.

Mind you, he’s probably right. Critiquing the church’s views on homosexuality has led to radicalization in the US. The Westborough Baptist Church are obsessed with homosexuality, as is the growing racist movement and even the black churches.

Homosexuality is an issue few fundamentalists will budge on.

Turnbull's hand was forced because he overlooked the fact he invited someone to his house who blamed deadly diseases on homosexuality. It suddenly became an issue of his own personal judgment - and therefore he really had no choice to go into "preach" mode. Otherwise he would be spinelessly apologising for him like everyone else.

That particular sermon by Sheik Shady about diseases was quite bizarre, given how breathtakingly ignorant it was. Its these sorts of inflamatory and bigoted pronouncements that should be distinguished from the rather more vague "homosexuality is a sin" sentiments, that yes, most muslims hold. Currently the mainstream muslim bodies are trying to maintain a bet each way: deny supporting violence or vilification against gays, but not softening their stance that homosexuality is a sin. This balancing act should actually be conducive to an Islam that is perfectly ok with equal rights for gays - if muslims could not only accept the principle of individual rights and freedoms, but actually accept that it is consistent with core Islamic teachings - in the tradition of the "postponement" philosophy* that was prevalent amongst the early muslims.

The trouble of course is when muslim leaders still get hung up on the "if there was an Islamic state..." question. In which case they feel compelled to defend all the "sharia" thought control laws we are all familiar with. IMO, about the first thing that must be purged from Islamic ideology in order to facilitate the necessary reform of Islam, is the idea that an "Islamic state" with sharia law is something that should be pursued. This is nonsense, and it has no basis in actual Islamic doctrine. The fact that muslims have far more freedom to practice their religion in so called "infidel" states in the west than they do in anything resembling "Islamic"states, should be enough to settle the issue once and for all.

Anyway, I digress. So back to Sheik Shady, while the sermon was unforgivable, the response from the Grand Mufti was probably even more so. The problem though was that when Turnbull went all preachy because of the difficult political situation he found himself in, the Mufti also felt cornered and no doubt felt something of a 'slap down' was needed. But politics aside, bigotry is bigotry, and irrespective of what the Mufti believes about Islam's view of gays, it shouldn't preclude him from calling out such obvious ignorance and bigotry.

*"postponers" was the name given to a particular school of thought in early Islam that taught that no human had the right to inflict earthly punishments for sins against God - and that the punishment must be "postponed" until the afterlife. It was the precursor to the rationalist ideology in Islam that advocates personal freedoms as well as rational interpretations of Islamic law - and rejecting dogma.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Dustwun

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #48 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:38pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:50pm:

I think any attempt to call out Islamic teachings on homosexuality is the decent thing to do. The threat that this could lead to radicalization is quite sinister. This, it seems, is the Islamic establishment’s new stick.

Mind you, he’s probably right. Critiquing the church’s views on homosexuality has led to radicalization in the US. The Westborough Baptist Church are obsessed with homosexuality, as is the growing racist movement and even the black churches.

Homosexuality is an issue few fundamentalists will budge on.

Turnbull's hand was forced because he overlooked the fact he invited someone to his house who blamed deadly diseases on homosexuality. It suddenly became an issue of his own personal judgment - and therefore he really had no choice to go into "preach" mode. Otherwise he would be spinelessly apologising for him like everyone else.

That particular sermon by Sheik Shady about diseases was quite bizarre, given how breathtakingly ignorant it was. Its these sorts of inflamatory and bigoted pronouncements that should be distinguished from the rather more vague "homosexuality is a sin" sentiments, that yes, most muslims hold. Currently the mainstream muslim bodies are trying to maintain a bet each way: deny supporting violence or vilification against gays, but not softening their stance that homosexuality is a sin. This balancing act should actually be conducive to an Islam that is perfectly ok with equal rights for gays - if muslims could not only accept the principle of individual rights and freedoms, but actually accept that it is consistent with core Islamic teachings - in the tradition of the "postponement" philosophy* that was prevalent amongst the early muslims.

The trouble of course is when muslim leaders still get hung up on the "if there was an Islamic state..." question. In which case they feel compelled to defend all the "sharia" thought control laws we are all familiar with. IMO, about the first thing that must be purged from Islamic ideology in order to facilitate the necessary reform of Islam, is the idea that an "Islamic state" with sharia law is something that should be pursued. This is nonsense, and it has no basis in actual Islamic doctrine. The fact that muslims have far more freedom to practice their religion in so called "infidel" states in the west than they do in anything resembling "Islamic"states, should be enough to settle the issue once and for all.

Anyway, I digress. So back to Sheik Shady, while the sermon was unforgivable, the response from the Grand Mufti was probably even more so. The problem though was that when Turnbull went all preachy because of the difficult political situation he found himself in, the Mufti also felt cornered and no doubt felt something of a 'slap down' was needed. But politics aside, bigotry is bigotry, and irrespective of what the Mufti believes about Islam's view of gays, it shouldn't preclude him from calling out such obvious ignorance and bigotry.

*"postponers" was the name given to a particular school of thought in early Islam that taught that no human had the right to inflict earthly punishments for sins against God - and that the punishment must be "postponed" until the afterlife. It was the precursor to the rationalist ideology in Islam that advocates personal freedoms as well as rational interpretations of Islamic law - and rejecting dogma.

Gandalf, does it worry you this 'Shady' character is not just a Sheik-youtube but none other than the Pres of the Imams council?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #49 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:44pm

Frank wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 7:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:08am:

Frank wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

2 minutes.

Stoning. The Grand Mufti defended that very point.

Well spotted.

Shame he's talking about zina (adultery) with regards to a married man.

Also, claiming that according to the sharia the punishment for a particular type of sexual act is death is not "wanting to kill gays" - not by a long shot.

Got anything else?

So all gays have to do to avoid being killed by Muslims under shariah law is enact gay marriage?

Exactly.

Gandalf, zina includes ALL non-marital sex, don't pretend otherwise. Why are you so reflexively dishonest about something so easily refuted? Zina is not about married men, you know that.

Frank, have you forgotten already the video you posted just yesterday? Mr Shady was very specific: stoning is only for married men caught performing the act of zina. You even showed me where - from 2 minutes on.

Why are you so reflexively dishonest about something so easily refuted?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #50 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:47pm

Dustwun wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:50pm:

I think any attempt to call out Islamic teachings on homosexuality is the decent thing to do. The threat that this could lead to radicalization is quite sinister. This, it seems, is the Islamic establishment’s new stick.

Mind you, he’s probably right. Critiquing the church’s views on homosexuality has led to radicalization in the US. The Westborough Baptist Church are obsessed with homosexuality, as is the growing racist movement and even the black churches.

Homosexuality is an issue few fundamentalists will budge on.

Turnbull's hand was forced because he overlooked the fact he invited someone to his house who blamed deadly diseases on homosexuality. It suddenly became an issue of his own personal judgment - and therefore he really had no choice to go into "preach" mode. Otherwise he would be spinelessly apologising for him like everyone else.

That particular sermon by Sheik Shady about diseases was quite bizarre, given how breathtakingly ignorant it was. Its these sorts of inflamatory and bigoted pronouncements that should be distinguished from the rather more vague "homosexuality is a sin" sentiments, that yes, most muslims hold. Currently the mainstream muslim bodies are trying to maintain a bet each way: deny supporting violence or vilification against gays, but not softening their stance that homosexuality is a sin. This balancing act should actually be conducive to an Islam that is perfectly ok with equal rights for gays - if muslims could not only accept the principle of individual rights and freedoms, but actually accept that it is consistent with core Islamic teachings - in the tradition of the "postponement" philosophy* that was prevalent amongst the early muslims.

The trouble of course is when muslim leaders still get hung up on the "if there was an Islamic state..." question. In which case they feel compelled to defend all the "sharia" thought control laws we are all familiar with. IMO, about the first thing that must be purged from Islamic ideology in order to facilitate the necessary reform of Islam, is the idea that an "Islamic state" with sharia law is something that should be pursued. This is nonsense, and it has no basis in actual Islamic doctrine. The fact that muslims have far more freedom to practice their religion in so called "infidel" states in the west than they do in anything resembling "Islamic"states, should be enough to settle the issue once and for all.

Anyway, I digress. So back to Sheik Shady, while the sermon was unforgivable, the response from the Grand Mufti was probably even more so. The problem though was that when Turnbull went all preachy because of the difficult political situation he found himself in, the Mufti also felt cornered and no doubt felt something of a 'slap down' was needed. But politics aside, bigotry is bigotry, and irrespective of what the Mufti believes about Islam's view of gays, it shouldn't preclude him from calling out such obvious ignorance and bigotry.

*"postponers" was the name given to a particular school of thought in early Islam that taught that no human had the right to inflict earthly punishments for sins against God - and that the punishment must be "postponed" until the afterlife. It was the precursor to the rationalist ideology in Islam that advocates personal freedoms as well as rational interpretations of Islamic law - and rejecting dogma.

Gandalf, does it worry you this 'Shady' character is not just a Sheik-youtube but none other than the Pres of the Imams council?

It does.

Though the bigger issue here is the fact that we have an "Imams council" to begin with. A religious hierarchy is a completely alien concept in Islam - not to mention the fact that they are quite out of touch with the average Aussie muslim.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Dustwun

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #51 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:57pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:47pm:

Dustwun wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:38pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:27pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:50pm:

I think any attempt to call out Islamic teachings on homosexuality is the decent thing to do. The threat that this could lead to radicalization is quite sinister. This, it seems, is the Islamic establishment’s new stick.

Mind you, he’s probably right. Critiquing the church’s views on homosexuality has led to radicalization in the US. The Westborough Baptist Church are obsessed with homosexuality, as is the growing racist movement and even the black churches.

Homosexuality is an issue few fundamentalists will budge on.

Turnbull's hand was forced because he overlooked the fact he invited someone to his house who blamed deadly diseases on homosexuality. It suddenly became an issue of his own personal judgment - and therefore he really had no choice to go into "preach" mode. Otherwise he would be spinelessly apologising for him like everyone else.

That particular sermon by Sheik Shady about diseases was quite bizarre, given how breathtakingly ignorant it was. Its these sorts of inflamatory and bigoted pronouncements that should be distinguished from the rather more vague "homosexuality is a sin" sentiments, that yes, most muslims hold. Currently the mainstream muslim bodies are trying to maintain a bet each way: deny supporting violence or vilification against gays, but not softening their stance that homosexuality is a sin. This balancing act should actually be conducive to an Islam that is perfectly ok with equal rights for gays - if muslims could not only accept the principle of individual rights and freedoms, but actually accept that it is consistent with core Islamic teachings - in the tradition of the "postponement" philosophy* that was prevalent amongst the early muslims.

The trouble of course is when muslim leaders still get hung up on the "if there was an Islamic state..." question. In which case they feel compelled to defend all the "sharia" thought control laws we are all familiar with. IMO, about the first thing that must be purged from Islamic ideology in order to facilitate the necessary reform of Islam, is the idea that an "Islamic state" with sharia law is something that should be pursued. This is nonsense, and it has no basis in actual Islamic doctrine. The fact that muslims have far more freedom to practice their religion in so called "infidel" states in the west than they do in anything resembling "Islamic"states, should be enough to settle the issue once and for all.

Anyway, I digress. So back to Sheik Shady, while the sermon was unforgivable, the response from the Grand Mufti was probably even more so. The problem though was that when Turnbull went all preachy because of the difficult political situation he found himself in, the Mufti also felt cornered and no doubt felt something of a 'slap down' was needed. But politics aside, bigotry is bigotry, and irrespective of what the Mufti believes about Islam's view of gays, it shouldn't preclude him from calling out such obvious ignorance and bigotry.

*"postponers" was the name given to a particular school of thought in early Islam that taught that no human had the right to inflict earthly punishments for sins against God - and that the punishment must be "postponed" until the afterlife. It was the precursor to the rationalist ideology in Islam that advocates personal freedoms as well as rational interpretations of Islamic law - and rejecting dogma.

Gandalf, does it worry you this 'Shady' character is not just a Sheik-youtube but none other than the Pres of the Imams council?

It does.

Though the bigger issue here is the fact that we have an "Imams council" to begin with. A religious hierarchy is a completely alien concept in Islam - not to mention the fact that they are quite out of touch with the average Aussie muslim.

Does this suggest Islamism is their main objective?

You say a hierarchy is an alien concept, but why do so many Middle Eastern governments call themselves Islamic regimes? Are they co-opting?

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #52 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 3:37pm

Dustwun wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

You say a hierarchy is an alien concept, but why do so many Middle Eastern governments call themselves Islamic regimes?

Even Islamists concede that some expediency and even innovation is needed in relation to how the state is run - given the total lack of any guidance on this matter in any Islamic doctrine. The caliphate, for example - famously yearned for by the most extreme of Islamists - has no basis in Islamic doctrine, and even the Islamists understand that.

I suppose the one exception to the hiearchy thing is the version of Shia Islam that is practiced in Iran. For them the Ayatollahs are chosen by God specifically to rule over the people - which is why they will always have the final say over any leaders chosen or appointed by mere men (and women).

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up Reply #53 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 3:40pm Actually I should correct myself - there is one guiding principle that the Quran mentions for how a state should be run - which funnily enough is most compatible to democracy. That is, to rule by "consultation" and "consensus".
Back to top	A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said: Quote: Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms. IP Logged

Dustwun

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #54 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 3:45pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 3:37pm:

Dustwun wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

You say a hierarchy is an alien concept, but why do so many Middle Eastern governments call themselves Islamic regimes?

Even Islamists concede that some expediency and even innovation is needed in relation to how the state is run - given the total lack of any guidance on this matter in any Islamic doctrine. The caliphate, for example - famously yearned for by the most extreme of Islamists - has no basis in Islamic doctrine, and even the Islamists understand that.

I suppose the one exception to the hiearchy thing is the version of Shia Islam that is practiced in Iran. For them the Ayatollahs are chosen by God specifically to rule over the people - which is why they will always have the final say over any leaders chosen or appointed by mere men (and women).

Is that why Sunnis hate them so much, because they claim a direct link to 'god'?

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Frank

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #55 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 4:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 7:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:08am:

Frank wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

2 minutes.

Stoning. The Grand Mufti defended that very point.

Well spotted.

Shame he's talking about zina (adultery) with regards to a married man.

Also, claiming that according to the sharia the punishment for a particular type of sexual act is death is not "wanting to kill gays" - not by a long shot.

Got anything else?

So all gays have to do to avoid being killed by Muslims under shariah law is enact gay marriage?

Exactly.

Gandalf, zina includes ALL non-marital sex, don't pretend otherwise. Why are you so reflexively dishonest about something so easily refuted? Zina is not about married men, you know that.

Frank, have you forgotten already the video you posted just yesterday? Mr Shady was very specific: stoning is only for married men caught performing the act of zina. You even showed me where - from 2 minutes on.

Why are you so reflexively dishonest about something so easily refuted?

He wasn't talking about zina as if it was only about married men as you tried to insinuate. And stoning is still the proper punishment in an Islamic state. Or being thrown off building or being hanged.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up Reply #56 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 5:59pm Frank, he was very specific - stoning only for married men, caught in the act. We are not talking about what you think you know about Islamic law, we're talking about what Mr Shady thinks. And he was crystal clear in that video. At least concede your mistake.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #57 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 6:08pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 3:40pm:

Actually I should correct myself - there is one guiding principle that the Quran mentions for how a state should be run - which funnily enough is most compatible to democracy. That is, to rule by "consultation" and "consensus".

Can you cite the verse from this link?

quran.com

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #58 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 6:12pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:44pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 2:13pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 7:29am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 10^th, 2016 at 12:08am:

Frank wrote on Jul 9^th, 2016 at 8:38pm:

2 minutes.

Stoning. The Grand Mufti defended that very point.

Well spotted.

Shame he's talking about zina (adultery) with regards to a married man.

Also, claiming that according to the sharia the punishment for a particular type of sexual act is death is not "wanting to kill gays" - not by a long shot.

Got anything else?

So all gays have to do to avoid being killed by Muslims under shariah law is enact gay marriage?

Exactly.

Gandalf, zina includes ALL non-marital sex, don't pretend otherwise. Why are you so reflexively dishonest about something so easily refuted? Zina is not about married men, you know that.

Frank, have you forgotten already the video you posted just yesterday? Mr Shady was very specific: stoning is only for married men caught performing the act of zina. You even showed me where - from 2 minutes on.

Was this stoning punishment a case of monkey see monkey do?

Sunnah.com/bukhari/63/75

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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freediver

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Re: Islamic victimhood industry steps it up
Reply #59 - Jul 10^th, 2016 at 6:22pm

Gandalf, if two married men in an Islamic state get caught having sex with each other, what would the Mufti's opinion be on the most appropriate punishment?

Quote:

That particular sermon by Sheik Shady about diseases was quite bizarre, given how breathtakingly ignorant it was. Its these sorts of inflamatory and bigoted pronouncements that should be distinguished from the rather more vague "homosexuality is a sin" sentiments, that yes, most muslims hold.

That's the second time I have seen you use the word sin Gandalf. Have you seen the light?

Quote:

Currently the mainstream muslim bodies are trying to maintain a bet each way: deny supporting violence or vilification against gays, but not softening their stance that homosexuality is a sin.

Third time! Do you think Turnbull would refuse to let a priest into his house who says that he considers homosexuality to be a sin?

Quote:

The trouble of course is when muslim leaders still get hung up on the "if there was an Islamic state..." question. In which case they feel compelled to defend all the "sharia" thought control laws we are all familiar with.

What are they, in the context of gays?

Quote:

IMO, about the first thing that must be purged from Islamic ideology in order to facilitate the necessary reform of Islam, is the idea that an "Islamic state" with sharia law is something that should be pursued.

Do you think that is what Muhammed would have wanted?

Quote:

But politics aside, bigotry is bigotry, and irrespective of what the Mufti believes about Islam's view of gays

What do you think the Mufti believes Gandalf? I do not recall the Mufti using the word sin.

Quote:

Frank, have you forgotten already the video you posted just yesterday? Mr Shady was very specific: stoning is only for married men caught performing the act of zina.

What do the women get?

Quote:

Though the bigger issue here is the fact that we have an "Imams council" to begin with. A religious hierarchy is a completely alien concept in Islam

True. As Muhammed demonstrated, it should be combined with the political heirachy in a proper Islamic state.

Quote:

not to mention the fact that they are quite out of touch with the average Aussie muslim

Are you in touch with the average Aussie Muslim?

Quote:

Even Islamists concede that some expediency and even innovation is needed in relation to how the state is run - given the total lack of any guidance on this matter in any Islamic doctrine. The caliphate, for example - famously yearned for by the most extreme of Islamists - has no basis in Islamic doctrine, and even the Islamists understand that.

Not even in the example set by Muhammed, the best of men?

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