Forum

 
  Back to OzPolitic.com   Welcome, Guest. Please Login or Register
  Forum Home Album HelpSearch Recent Rules LoginRegister  
 

Pages: 1 2 3 ... 28
Send Topic Print
The truth about "islamaphobia" (Read 20172 times)
sir prince duke alevine
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 23619
Gender: male
The truth about "islamaphobia"
Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:32am
 
Quote:
On July 23, Waleed Aly will be presented with the Voltaire Award for free speech from Liberty Victoria. It would be rather charming were he to give a speech on that occasion reflecting on Voltaire’s play Mahomet, which depicted Islam as based on false miracles, personal ambition and ruthless fanaticism.

For some time Aly has been the go-to person for commentary on Islam and avoiding what is widely dubbed “Islamophobia”. It is safe to say he does not share Voltaire’s assessment of Islam.

Yet Voltaire remains a figure for our time, and free speech on the subject of Islam has become extraordinarily problematic. Imagine Mahomet being produced in Paris today! The truth is, if we truly want to buttress a tolerant, multicultural society, we have to confront more honestly the underlying realities that generate “Islamophobia”, however awkward this may be, especially for those such as Aly who are stranded between Islamic culture and secular society. The occasion of the Voltaire Award for free speech is an opportunity for Aly to make this clear.

In April, Aly was interviewed at length by Robert Manne under the rubric “Islam: What are We Afraid of? Waleed Aly and Robert Manne in conversation.” Their conversation was lucid, temperate and fascinating. In some ways, it was a model of intellectual discourse in civil society. The problem is, they did not answer their own question, to say nothing of answering it as Voltaire would have done.

Aly observed correctly that Islamist terrorism had got only worse since the invasion of Afghanistan in 2001 and especially since the invasion of Iraq in 2003.

He distinguished thoughtfully between European, American and Australian reactions to Muslim immigration and made intelligent points about Islamic State, Iraq, Syria and the debacle of the briefly promising Arab Spring. He described the short rule in Egypt by the Muslim Brotherhood as “a disaster”. However, neither he nor Manne raised serious questions about Islam itself; simply gliding over it as “one of the world’s great religions”; the fear of which is, implicitly, irrational, phobic, ignorant and, in Aly’s words, hardly worth engaging with.

They described Islamic State as a rogue operation whose atrocities had nothing to do with Islam but were aberrant even by the standards of al-Qa’ida.

Aly compared beheadings by Islamic State to the Jacobin Terror in 1793 France but didn’t mention beheadings in the history of Islam. Neither mentioned movements towards Islamisation — from North Africa via Turkey to Indonesia — or the disturbing phenomenon of Muslim “militants” murdering journalists and others for mocking Islam.

Consequently, they failed to explain why there would be any reason to feel uneasy about or even hostile to the growing presence of Islam in the West. One might have expected at least passing reference to the many centuries of confrontation between Europe and an expansionist Islam up to the late 17th century. But the only confrontation discussed was the Western invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq after 9/11.

Clearly, this is an immensely sensitive subject and it is easy to lapse into polemic about it, inflaming rather than tempering debate. If, however, we are to answer the question “Islam: What are we afraid of?” we cannot avoid raising certain characteristics of Islam that do in fact give cause for concern to many people in the West, and many of those trapped in Muslim-dominated states. We know far more than Voltaire did, and what we know is not reassuring.

Karen Armstrong has portrayed Mohammed as “a prophet for our time”. But the classic Muslim sources (Ibn Ishaq, Ibn Kathir, Waqidi, al-Tabari, going back to the 8th and 9th centuries) make clear that he was a very dubious figure even in his own time. He founded a religion at the point of a sword, plundered infidels, arranged for the murder of his critics (even poets), massacred or expelled communities of Jews in Arabia, condemned apostates to death, was an unscrupulous poly­gamist and taught that women were inferior to men.

The Muslim sources themselves are completely explicit on all these points. It is simply dishonest to pretend that none of this is true or to pass it off on the basis that Christianity and even Judaism also have their dark or dubious characteristics. The modern world (Voltaire being a leader) fought its way free of Judeo-Christian dogmatism and error through trenchant criticism of religious claims and practices. There are no good grounds for sparing Islam similar critical treatment; all the more so because we are seeking to integrate into Western societies millions of human beings who happen to be Muslims.

Outside the West, the problem is much worse. In wide swathes of the Muslim world, other religions are persecuted and apostates are hunted to death with judicial sanction. Blasphemy is violently attacked and Muslim “heretics” hounded. Homosexuals are condemned to death. Women and girls are denied freedom and education. The Jews are viciously denounced on racist and religious grounds, quite apart from the political issue of Zionism.
Back to top
 

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
IP Logged
 
sir prince duke alevine
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 23619
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #1 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:33am
 
Quote:
What are we afraid of, then? A world in which, from Bangladesh to West Africa, a savage version of Islam is being championed by armed groups; in which the Indonesian Ulama Council has issued fatwas denouncing secularism, pluralism and liberalism as “sipilis” (syphilis); in which Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdogan last year publicly lionised historic Muslim conquests and called for the reconquest of Europe by Muslim immigration.

All these things cause unease and fear. Should they not? We need to address them honestly and intelligently, not dismiss fear of Islam as phobic or bigoted. It would have been good had Manne asked Aly questions about these difficult matters and had Aly addressed them. In accepting his Voltaire Award, Aly needs to step up and champion freedom of speech in the Muslim world and freedom to criticise Islam itself, including the Prophet — as Voltaire himself did.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/opinion/waleed-aly-must-step-up-on-muslim-free-s...
Back to top
 

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
IP Logged
 
Mr Hammer
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 25212
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #2 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:44am
 
As well written as the article is; it's  nothing that, Yadda, for example, hasn't  written dozens of times. The proplem of the Islamification of the west still only calls for two responses ; talking about a solution or laughing the concerns off as hysterical hate speech. Unfortunately, even on OP, it's  the latter.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:15am by Mr Hammer »  
 
IP Logged
 
salad in
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5941
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #3 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am
 
Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.
Back to top
 

The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!
 
IP Logged
 
sir prince duke alevine
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 23619
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #4 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am
 
salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am:
Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.

Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates.
Back to top
 

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.
 
IP Logged
 
Gordon
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 20733
Gordon
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #5 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:41am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am:
salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am:
Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.

Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates. 


The regressive left are in fact supporting the conservative Muslims over the reformists.
Back to top
 

IBI
 
IP Logged
 
salad in
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 5941
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #6 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:14am
 
sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 9:37am:
salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am:
Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL. There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views. There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims. There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran. If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.

Well not entirely true.  There are reformist Muslims who actually wish for their religion to undergo enlightenment as what happened with Catholicism.  And there are of course radicals/extremists, orthodox, and the moderates. 


SPDA, know your koran.

2:2 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for those conscious of Allah -

The koran is the immutable word of mo. It - the koran - is free of errors and is not subject to emendation. The alleged moderates you talk of have no authority to fiddle with the koran.

There are no shades of muslims; only muslims.
Back to top
 

The ALP, the progressive party, the party of ideas, the workers' friend, is the only Australian political party to roast four young Australians in roof cavities. SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!
 
IP Logged
 
Prime Minister for Canyons
Gold Member
*****
Offline


Australian Politics

Posts: 26906
Canberra
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #7 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:20am
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:44am:
As well written as the article is; it's  nothing that, Yadda, for example, hasn't  written dozens of times. The proplem of the Islamification of the west still only calls for two responses ; talking about a solution or laughing the concerns off as hysterical hate speech. Unfortunately, even on OP, it's  the latter.




Is it, his writing is so poorly formatted its hard to work out what he 's saying
Back to top
 

In a time of universal deceit — telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

No evidence whatsoever it can be attributed to George Orwell or Eric Arthur Blair (in fact the same guy)
 
IP Logged
 
Yadda
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 21884
A cat with a view
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #8 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:56am
 
salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am:

Mr Aly is not a muslim. If he were he would be fighting with ISIL.

There is no verse in the koran that allows muslims to relax their harsh views.




Not strictly true.


----------- >

Yadda said.....
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1467888920/23#23
Quote:


THE TRUTH;


Moslems only promote tolerance of minorities, in places where moslems are a minority.  !!!!


And, the moslem living here, in Australia, full-well knows, but hides and denies, the fact,    ....i.e. the truth, that the moslem is not permitted by his religion, to be tolerant of people who are not moslems.

And that fact,
is an article of faith, for every moslem.




.



Quote:
July 28, 2006
Islamic Dictionary for Infidels

...Robert Spencer, ..."Religious deception of unbelievers is indeed taught by the Qur'an itself:

"Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers. If any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah; except by way of precaution, that ye may guard yourselves from them"
(Qur'an 3:28).

In other words, don't make friends with unbelievers except to "guard yourselves from them": pretend to be their friends so that you can strengthen yourself against them. The distinguished Qur'anic commentator Ibn Kathir explains that this verse teaches that if "believers who in some areas or times fear for their safety from the disbelievers," they may "show friendship to the disbelievers outwardly, but never inwardly."
Google




.




Quote:

A Study in Muslim Doctrine

"...while sincere friendship with non-Muslims is forbidden,

insincere friendship - whenever beneficial to Muslims - is not."


http://www.meforum.org/2512/nidal-hasan-fort-hood-muslim-doctrine





.



salad in wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 8:46am:

There is no mention in the koran of moderate muslims or radical muslims.

There is no manichean type escape clause in the koran.

If you cleave to the alleged religion of islam you are a muslim without any shades of grey, light grey, dark grey etc.



Absolutely true, imo.


e.g.

"Why should ye be divided into two parties about the Hypocrites? Allah hath upset them for their (evil) deeds. Would ye guide those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way? For those whom Allah hath thrown out of the Way, never shalt thou find the Way.
They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;-"
Koran 4.88, 89

< -------------

The 'Hypocrites' in this example, are moslem backsliders, who are slack about their religion.

e.g.
The devout moslem would say that a person like Waleed Aly would qualify as a moslem 'Hypocrite' !!




"Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allah and the Last Day, loving those who resist Allah and His Messenger, even though they were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred...."
Koran 58.22


"O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers."
Koran 9.23



Back to top
« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2016 at 11:02am by Yadda »  

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
IP Logged
 
Yadda
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 21884
A cat with a view
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #9 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:58am
 
Prime Minister for Canyons wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:20am:
Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 4:44am:
As well written as the article is; it's  nothing that, Yadda, for example, hasn't  written dozens of times. The proplem of the Islamification of the west still only calls for two responses ; talking about a solution or laughing the concerns off as hysterical hate speech. Unfortunately, even on OP, it's  the latter.




Is it, his writing is so poorly formatted its hard to work out what he 's saying






My apologies to you.             Smiley



Back to top
 

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #10 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 10:59am
 
Mr Aly is a muslim apologist, he has a chip on his shoulder as big as his head.  He is of the progressive Left and has a media platform to espouse his views that is far beyond their worth.

Don't start me on Manne....  both useless individuals.
No wonder it went nowhere.

Makes me want to see Mahomet now... if I could be assured terrorists would stay away.
Back to top
« Last Edit: Jul 13th, 2016 at 11:20am by Grendel »  
 
IP Logged
 
Black Orchid
Gold Member
*****
Offline



Posts: 5813
Gender: female
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #11 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:05pm
 
Quote:
Aly’s childhood was very Australian. Educated at Wesley College, an elite private school in ­Melbourne, he played cricket and Australian rules football and even filled in for a friend as the tiger mascot of the Richmond Football Club (one time, in front of 40,000 people, he wrestled the Bulldogs mascot, pulling off his head to the delight of the Richmond fans.)

At the age of about 20 he took a trip to Egypt, years later telling Andrew Denton on his ­program Enough Rope that he arrived at a new level of ­“religious consciousness” after that trip and had something of a flirtation with Islamic fundamentalism. “I came back to Australia looking for ­religious things and when I looked around all I saw… was a brand of Islam that I think really did inculcate a kind of fundamentalist outlook, a kind of thing that was about purity to the ­exclusion of everyone else who is by definition then impure. And it’s at that phase that I sort of started doing all the things that people who ­follow a similar kind of path do and it’s actually kind of a form of youth rebellion in a lot of cases.”

Stressing that he was never involved in ­anything remotely violent, Aly told Denton that his activities included preaching, yelling at ­people and constructing “a kind of globalised identity” through a heightened political ­consciousness of the plight of Muslims overseas. “We just kind of figured that we could go out there and yell at people and then they’d suddenly see the light and think, ‘Wow, you guys are great’,’’ he said, before adding that this phase wore off. Today Aly is a practising Sunni Muslim who reads and writes Arabic to a certain level.


http://www.theaustralian.com.au/life/weekend-australian-magazine/waleed-aly-why-...

Maybe his "flirtation with fundamentalism" never really wore off.

To me he looks like a very angry man like there is something uncertain brewing just under the surface.
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dsmithy70
Gold Member
*****
Offline


ire futuis vobismetipsis

Posts: 13147
Newy
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #12 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm
 
Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" &
Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.



Back to top
 

REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento
 
IP Logged
 
Grendel
Gold Member
*****
Offline


OzPolitic

Posts: 28080
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #13 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm
 
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm:
Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url]

We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common?
THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES...
Back to top
 
 
IP Logged
 
Dsmithy70
Gold Member
*****
Offline


ire futuis vobismetipsis

Posts: 13147
Newy
Gender: male
Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #14 - Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:39pm
 
Grendel wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:28pm:
Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13th, 2016 at 12:16pm:
Saw this the other day, might pay to watch then reconsider blanket statements like "Muslim Countries" & Islamophobia. It would not exist if we sheeted home the problems to those that deserve the blame rather than an easy scapegoat.[/url]

We know Muslim countries have problems...  the video just points out that different Muslim countries have different problems. We know that...  what do they have in common?
THEY ARE MUSLIM COUNTRIES...


So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion.

FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem NOT a CHRISTIAN Country problem.


Stop bashing a religion & sheet home the blame to those that deserve it.

Or better yet BAN ALL RELIGIONS, then no one would have an excuse.
Back to top
 

REBELLION is not what most people think it is.
REBELLION is when you turn off the TV & start educating & thinking for yourself.
Gavin Nascimento
 
IP Logged
 
Pages: 1 2 3 ... 28
Send Topic Print