Australian Politics Forum - The truth about "islamaphobia"

Brian Ross

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #120 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:27pm:

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes. And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

It is not Fascist. It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology". It is a religion.

Quote:

And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped? I havent heard of your particular example.

Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti. Which is why I suggest you read more. Obviously you haven't. Roll Eyes

Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED. Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death. Is Stoning worse than caning? I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think? Perhaps you do need to read more widely? Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #121 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:00pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:44pm:

Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to flog a woman for being raped? Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point. And Islam is anything but liberal.

There are ignorant people everywhere. Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic? Roll Eyes

I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam. I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning a raped woman would be acceptable. Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #122 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:12pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:40pm:

Except most views of 13th century misogynistic men are no longer used as some kind of ideology to follow, other than Mohammeds. In which case how can I not judge the "prophet" other than by today's standards?

If you accept him as divine, judgement is impossible.

If you don't accept him as divine, you cannot judge him by today's standards as he is not alive today and his views and actions must be viewed in light of the environment in which he existed.

Do you judge the Romans by today's mores or by the mores of the Roman Empire? I'd judge them by their own mores. I've often heard historians of Ancient Rome chuckling over what some Roman General or Emporer did in exacting punishment on some rebellious group or province. Were they judging them by today's mores? I rather doubt it.

Quote:

All religious Islamic states judge his word as the word to being a good muslim, and have implemented state laws around it. If you agree that he is a 13th century barbarian than you should agree Islam is not fit for today's day and age, and MUST change. In which case, your claim that Islam has reformed is bullshit because you don't see the same challenges to the "literal" word as we have had in Christianity and in Judaism.

Nations which consider(ed) themselves to be "Good Christian nations" enacted laws around their Christian beliefs, which of course allowed slavery, servitude of women and children, penury of the peasants, etc. Funny that. Today's "Islamic religious states" (which there are only a few) enact various laws based on Sh'ria and the Q'ran. Some are good laws, some are harsh and some stupid. Sounds rather like Australia in that way, doesn't it? No human devised system of laws is perfect, remember that. Roll Eyes

Quote:

As for demanding reform, what you say is typical regressive leftism. If you believe in universal human rights than it isn't just up to Muslims to reform their own religion, but up to us to help the reformers and to ensure that it happens.

Is exactly what I have proposed when you came into this thread... Roll Eyes

So, it appears we are arguing 'round about in circles. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Universal human rights are not just for the lucky white and we get to seat around and say "you can have it too if you work at it, but we won't demand it." Universal human rights are just that: universal. All of us must fight for them and if we see problems, from which people can barely escape from I might add, then it isn't right to seat back and say "don't interfere, it's not our problem." That's how we got to suddam Hussein killing millions while the world sat around in its pathetic pacifist state. And it's the same with Islam: it isn't just up to Muslims to stop their religion being interpreted to mean a raped woman should be flogged. It's up to all of us to ensure that doesn't happen as it's obviously against universal human rights. Hence, those who don't stand up are the regressive left, who accept the problems in Islam and don't wish to interfere for the sake of offending or seeming to be the "white supremist".

Never took you to be an idealist. There is a problem with demanding something of someone. All too often they dig their heels in and refuse to do what you've demanded. Ask them and you might be more successful. Show them the way and do it yourself, you might have even more success. Help them and your success rate goes up again.

Standing on the sidelines and making demands rarely works. Roll Eyes

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations works even more rarely. Roll Eyes

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations, and denying the ones who attempt to escape that society entry to your own when they come asking Asylum makes you look like a what? Roll Eyes

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #123 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:36pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:27pm:

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes. And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

It is not Fascist. It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology". It is a religion.

Quote:

And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped? I havent heard of your particular example.

Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti. Which is why I suggest you read more. Obviously you haven't. Roll Eyes

Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED. Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.

Quote:

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death.

You wouldn't be ahhh...talking poo now would you?

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #124 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:56pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:27pm:

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes. And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

It is not Fascist. It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology". It is a religion.

Quote:

And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped? I havent heard of your particular example.

Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti. Which is why I suggest you read more. Obviously you haven't. Roll Eyes

Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED. Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death. Is Stoning worse than caning? I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think? Perhaps you do need to read more widely? Roll Eyes

And which christian state does it? Perhaps you should stop coming up with excuses?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #125 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:58pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:00pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:44pm:

Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to flog a woman for being raped? Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point. And Islam is anything but liberal.

There are ignorant people everywhere. Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic? Roll Eyes

I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam. I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning a raped woman would be acceptable. Roll Eyes

There are ignorant people everwhere of course. But only islamic states that take the ignorance and actually perform on it. Stop making excuses.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42329	Re: The truth about "islamaphobia" Reply #126 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:02pm ... wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:36pm: You wouldn't be ahhh...talking poo now would you? Nope. Are you?
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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #127 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:04pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:12pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:40pm:

Except most views of 13th century misogynistic men are no longer used as some kind of ideology to follow, other than Mohammeds. In which case how can I not judge the "prophet" other than by today's standards?

If you accept him as divine, judgement is impossible.

If you don't accept him as divine, you cannot judge him by today's standards as he is not alive today and his views and actions must be viewed in light of the environment in which he existed.

Do you judge the Romans by today's mores or by the mores of the Roman Empire? I'd judge them by their own mores. I've often heard historians of Ancient Rome chuckling over what some Roman General or Emporer did in exacting punishment on some rebellious group or province. Were they judging them by today's mores? I rather doubt it.

Quote:

All religious Islamic states judge his word as the word to being a good muslim, and have implemented state laws around it. If you agree that he is a 13th century barbarian than you should agree Islam is not fit for today's day and age, and MUST change. In which case, your claim that Islam has reformed is bullshit because you don't see the same challenges to the "literal" word as we have had in Christianity and in Judaism.

Nations which consider(ed) themselves to be "Good Christian nations" enacted laws around their Christian beliefs, which of course allowed slavery, servitude of women and children, penury of the peasants, etc. Funny that. Today's "Islamic religious states" (which there are only a few) enact various laws based on Sh'ria and the Q'ran. Some are good laws, some are harsh and some stupid. Sounds rather like Australia in that way, doesn't it? No human devised system of laws is perfect, remember that. Roll Eyes

Quote:

As for demanding reform, what you say is typical regressive leftism. If you believe in universal human rights than it isn't just up to Muslims to reform their own religion, but up to us to help the reformers and to ensure that it happens.

Is exactly what I have proposed when you came into this thread... Roll Eyes

So, it appears we are arguing 'round about in circles. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Universal human rights are not just for the lucky white and we get to seat around and say "you can have it too if you work at it, but we won't demand it." Universal human rights are just that: universal. All of us must fight for them and if we see problems, from which people can barely escape from I might add, then it isn't right to seat back and say "don't interfere, it's not our problem." That's how we got to suddam Hussein killing millions while the world sat around in its pathetic pacifist state. And it's the same with Islam: it isn't just up to Muslims to stop their religion being interpreted to mean a raped woman should be flogged. It's up to all of us to ensure that doesn't happen as it's obviously against universal human rights. Hence, those who don't stand up are the regressive left, who accept the problems in Islam and don't wish to interfere for the sake of offending or seeming to be the "white supremist".

Never took you to be an idealist. There is a problem with demanding something of someone. All too often they dig their heels in and refuse to do what you've demanded. Ask them and you might be more successful. Show them the way and do it yourself, you might have even more success. Help them and your success rate goes up again.

Standing on the sidelines and making demands rarely works. Roll Eyes

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations works even more rarely. Roll Eyes

Standing on the sidelines, making demands and condemning them when they fail to live up t your expectations, and denying the ones who attempt to escape that society entry to your own when they come asking Asylum makes you look like a what? Roll Eyes

This is the stupidest excuse making i have heard to date.

1. Noone is chuckling over tbe devine mohammed, the general islamic awe of him is such that one gets killed for merely depicting him in a cartoon.

2. I dont defend christian states, but last checked theyve learnt from their bad ideas. The very fact that islamic states havent and still these laws exist is exactly what we are talking about. Many laws afe stupid, but we are talking about obvious anti liberal and anti human rignts laws that sharia represents, and your obvious regression from a progressive position to a "its stupid but lets not criticise as we gave stupid laws too" position. Stop excusing it.

3. When has asking a fascist ever worked? Are you a history revisionist now too?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #128 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:04pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:27pm:

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes. And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

It is not Fascist. It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology". It is a religion.

Quote:

And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped? I havent heard of your particular example.

Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti. Which is why I suggest you read more. Obviously you haven't. Roll Eyes

Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED. Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death. Is Stoning worse than caning? I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think? Perhaps you do need to read more widely? Roll Eyes

And which christian state does it?

None, hopefully.

Quote:

Perhaps you should stop coming up with excuses?

Who's making excuses? You asked a question. I provided an answer. Don't you like people answering your questions - except the way you like them answered?

So, what's your opinion on the good book of Christianity, The Bible, suggesting that stoning was an appropriate punishment to both the Raper and the Rapee? Roll Eyes

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #129 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:06pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:02pm:

... wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:36pm:

You wouldn't be ahhh...talking poo now would you?

Nope.

Are you sure? let's look at this again:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death.

... wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:36pm:

But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes her, only the man who has done this shall die. Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no sin deserving death.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #130 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:10pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:04pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:56pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 2:57pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:30pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 9:50pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 6:27pm:

Well if you've never seen me do it perhaps open your eyes. And it could very well be a problem of the right, I don't really care. What I care about is the fact that regressive leftists are completely demolishing the foundations of what real liberals have fought for, for the sake of "being nice" about a cruel fascist ideology.

It is not Fascist. It is not particularly cruel, well no more than any other religion IMO and it is definitely not an "ideology". It is a religion.

Quote:

And you can of course present the information relating to Singapore caning a woman for being raped? I havent heard of your particular example.

Not for rape but for what we in Australia would consider misdemeanours such as graffiti. Which is why I suggest you read more. Obviously you haven't. Roll Eyes

Oh I know of singapores caning, and obviously disagree with it and condemn it. But it's a different scenario and mentality to CANNING A RAPED WOMAN FOR BEING RAPED. Find a religion where the Religious STATE does this other than Islam.

in Deuteronomy 22:23-29, both the Raper and the Rapee are to be stoned to death. Is Stoning worse than caning? I think it's worse than being canned, though, don't you think? Perhaps you do need to read more widely? Roll Eyes

And which christian state does it?

None, hopefully.

Quote:

Perhaps you should stop coming up with excuses?

Who's making excuses? You asked a question. I provided an answer. Don't you like people answering your questions - except the way you like them answered?

So, what's your opinion on the good book of Christianity, The Bible, suggesting that stoning was an appropriate punishment to both the Raper and the Rapee? Roll Eyes

I think youre confusing me for being rekigious. Im not. Christianity had its dark days too, and hence enlightenment. The whole argment im making is that regressives such as yourself must stop excusing islam as youure preventing its enlightenment everytjme you try and excuse away the current situation with a situation from the past. Its a null argument tbat only shows your acceptance of the issues, and therefore acceptance of denial of human rights to over a billion people.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Brian Ross

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #131 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:44pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:58pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 3:00pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 10:44pm:

Can you tell me, what is the view from within Islam which finds it acceptable to flog a woman for being raped? Or acceptable to kill apostates? Or kill journalists for making fun of the 13th century barbarian? It's not about being an outsider looking in, it's about being a person who views the world from a liberal stand point. And Islam is anything but liberal.

There are ignorant people everywhere. Perhaps you'd like to tell us if it's acceptable within Christianity to kill a doctor who performs abortions or to blow up the clinic where they are performed or shoot the person who guards such a clinic? Roll Eyes

I have no idea whether or not it is generally acceptable to cane a raped woman within Islam. I just know it isn't acceptable here and I doubt many Muslims in Australia would believe that caning a raped woman would be acceptable. Roll Eyes

There are ignorant people everwhere of course. But only islamic states that take the ignorance and actually perform on it. Stop making excuses.

You keep calling explanations, excuses. You don't think you have rather a narrow, moralistic viewpoint on this issue (crime and punishment)?

I'm yet to actually find an Islamic state that actually has caning of a raped woman on it's law books. I'm not talking about Daesh, which everybody (except Daesh, obviously) agrees is loony.

Quote:

Punishment of victims
Main articles: Victim blaming, Honor killing, and Slut-shaming

While the practice is condemned as barbaric by many present-day societies[citation needed], some societies punish the victims of rape as well as the perpetrators. According to such cultures, being raped dishonors the victim and, in many cases, the victim's family. In some countries (e.g. Libya, Afghanistan) rape victims are sometimes killed to restore honor to the family's name.[39][40]

In the Shakespeare drama Titus Andronicus, the title character kills his raped, maimed daughter in what he believes to be a mercy killing.

Certain cultures have historically promoted a system of honor, dishonor and shame, which was applied with particular strictness to females. A victim of rape would be considered to have lost her honorable reputation and place in society, a loss of honor which entailed shame on the woman's family group as well. In early ancient Rome, ancient China, and other cultures, a pressure has existed which has led women to commit suicide after becoming victims of rape. The iconic Roman instance is that of Lucretia. Likewise, suicide of female rape victims for reasons of shame is also historically documented in Chinese and Japanese culture.

In countries which outlaw fornication or adultery, rape victims may become subject to these laws (if they cannot prove the rape case and/or if it is revealed they were not virgins at the time of the assault - in the case of unmarried victims).[41]

[Source]

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Baronvonrort Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 18754 Gender:	Re: The truth about "islamaphobia" Reply #132 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:45pm Ali Sina the ex muslim from Iran debunks the bullshit word called Islamophobia. faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60526.htm
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139232 Gender:	Re: The truth about "islamaphobia" Reply #133 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:49pm Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:45pm: Ali Sina the ex muslim from Iran debunks the bullshit word called Islamophobia. faithfreedom.org/oped/sina60526.htm The Islamophobes are still at it.
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Brian Ross

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #134 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:52pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:04pm:

This is the stupidest excuse making i have heard to date.

Why do you keep mistaking explanation for excuse? Roll Eyes

Quote:

1. Noone is chuckling over tbe devine mohammed, the general islamic awe of him is such that one gets killed for merely depicting him in a cartoon.

In some countries, yes it does. In most countries it doesn't. Mmm, maybe most Muslims are more tolerant than you believe? Roll Eyes

Quote:

2. I dont defend christian states, but last checked theyve learnt from their bad ideas. The very fact that islamic states havent and still these laws exist is exactly what we are talking about. Many laws afe stupid, but we are talking about obvious anti liberal and anti human rignts laws that sharia represents, and your obvious regression from a progressive position to a "its stupid but lets not criticise as we gave stupid laws too" position. Stop excusing it.

Yet you excuse the Christian states and ignore them, everytime I mention them. As for your claim that Islamic states haven't learnt, I find just incredible. Islam is an incredibly diverse culture which exists from the Philippines to West Africa. Some countries are regression (Iran/Saudi Arabia/the Arabian Peninsular) some are progressive (Tunisia/Morocco/Niger/Malaysia/Indonesia). Most are in between.

Quote:

3. When has asking a fascist ever worked? Are you a history revisionist now too?

Well, it all depends on whether you believe they are fascist or not, I suppose. As you appear to believe everybody you disagree with is a fascist, that makes it rather moot, don't you think? Roll Eyes

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