Australian Politics Forum - The truth about "islamaphobia"

Frank

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #165 - Jul 14^th, 2016 at 7:25pm

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:55pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:10pm:

[
I think youre confusing me for being rekigious. Im not. Christianity had its dark days too, and hence enlightenment. The whole argment im making is that regressives such as yourself must stop excusing islam as youure preventing its enlightenment everytjme you try and excuse away the current situation with a situation from the past. Its a null argument tbat only shows your acceptance of the issues, and therefore acceptance of denial of human rights to over a billion people.

Tell me, what do you know about the Reformation and Counter-Reformation of Christianity and the Enlightenment period in Europe?

TOTALLY irrelevant when assessing whether Islam is regressive and bad for humanity.

To declare Islam to such doesn't require any other creed to be also declared as such.

Don't be a lying dishonest activist for dishonest, regressive and repressive ideologies, Brian.

Especially if you are too thick to present a coherent or credible argument. Being thick in the service of a repressive ideology makes you look like a mindless lackey of furious, disgusting tyrants.

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The4thEstate

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #166 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:52am

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:39pm:

So why don't we refer to them as countries rather than religion.

FGM as referred to in the video, is a christian country problem(or more to the point an African problem) yet in reporting we here it's Muslim countries, not only is this factually incorrect but even if they did report it correctly you can bet it would be described as an Eritrean or African problem NOT a CHRISTIAN Country problem.

I don't understand your point. FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab. Where it occurs is less relevant than which religion practices this sort of misogynistic barbarism.

Dsmithy70 wrote on Jul 13^th, 2016 at 12:39pm:

Or better yet BAN ALL RELIGIONS, then no one would have an excuse.

That's a typical leftist "solution" -- blame all religions for the misdeeds of one.

But of course, collectivists yearn for state control over the populace, and that's hard to achieve when people have more faith in a supreme being than a gang of power-hungry bureaucrats.

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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35578 Gender:	Re: The truth about "islamaphobia" Reply #167 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:57am FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab? Man, do you need an education.
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Lisa Jones

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #168 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 6:09am

Frank wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 7:25pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:55pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:10pm:

[
I think youre confusing me for being rekigious. Im not. Christianity had its dark days too, and hence enlightenment. The whole argment im making is that regressives such as yourself must stop excusing islam as youure preventing its enlightenment everytjme you try and excuse away the current situation with a situation from the past. Its a null argument tbat only shows your acceptance of the issues, and therefore acceptance of denial of human rights to over a billion people.

Tell me, what do you know about the Reformation and Counter-Reformation of Christianity and the Enlightenment period in Europe?

TOTALLY irrelevant when assessing whether Islam is regressive and bad for humanity.

To declare Islam to such doesn't require any other creed to be also declared as such.

Don't be a lying dishonest activist for dishonest, regressive and repressive ideologies, Brian.

Especially if you are too thick to present a coherent or credible argument. Being thick in the service of a repressive ideology makes you look like a mindless lackey of furious, disgusting tyrants.

Ahhh, but that is exactly what Ahmed Ross is.

And he's got a few online methods in place so as to blurr the boundaries btwn Islam and other religions when arguing FOR ISLAM.

For example, always take note of the parts of posts he conveniently excludes when he uploads them for his purported "objective" analysis.

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aquascoot

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #169 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 7:05am

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 7:24pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 6:44pm:

Well, your insistence to quote the Old Testament to me in an attempt to excuse away sharia law, for one.

Where have I suggested that Sh'ria law should be excused?

Where did I quote The Old Testament to you in an attempt to prove anything, other than to answer your question about other belief systems punishing rape victims?

Appears to me you're reading what you want to read, rather than what I have typed. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Or perhaps that you believe in universal human rights but don't wish to interfere when they are blatantly being denied.

Tell me, how do you undertake your interference?

Do you ask the perpetrators to change or do you demand that they change?

Which do you think will achieve the ends you want, faster?

Quote:

Come to think of it, I don't think you've read the article because you're exhibiting all the traits of a very confused regressive leftist.

I see you enjoy using words you just don't even understand, do you? Roll Eyes

Many leftists are confused.
Why?

Because they dont have an inner purpose that is aligned with an outer purpose.

If your inner purpose is to feel this anxiety and fearfulness and guilt about your priveledged position, then the only way to live a congruent life is to go and become mother Theresa and live amongst the poor.

If you feel this emotional state but stay in affluence, live in a beautiful country where everything is abundant then your

THOUGHTS WORDS AND ACTIONS

are not aligned.

if you dont align these in your life purpose, you will live in a state of mental anguish and lash out with emotional outbursts.
This forum sees this on a regular basis Wink

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #170 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 8:35am

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 7:24pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 6:44pm:

Well, your insistence to quote the Old Testament to me in an attempt to excuse away sharia law, for one.

Where have I suggested that Sh'ria law should be excused?

Where did I quote The Old Testament to you in an attempt to prove anything, other than to answer your question about other belief systems punishing rape victims?

Appears to me you're reading what you want to read, rather than what I have typed. Roll Eyes

Quote:

Or perhaps that you believe in universal human rights but don't wish to interfere when they are blatantly being denied.

Tell me, how do you undertake your interference?

Do you ask the perpetrators to change or do you demand that they change?

Which do you think will achieve the ends you want, faster?

Quote:

Come to think of it, I don't think you've read the article because you're exhibiting all the traits of a very confused regressive leftist.

I see you enjoy using words you just don't even understand, do you? Roll Eyes

The Old Testament is used in the present day by a state in order to justify the punishment for being raped? You can of course tell us which state this is? And if not then once again it is a useless example because whenever we assess we do so on the present day. And the very fact you try and bring in the Old Testament when no state imposes its interpretations onto a mass of people is an excuse away from sharia. But look, keep pretending that you're just trying to offer an apple for an apple analysis when really you're offering us many oranges.

As for your other statements, like I asked you and you blatantly ran away and didn't answer: how does one ask people wearing suicide vests and in the state of mind that makes them believe the after world is beautiful that they need to change and stop denying people their basic human rights? How does one "ask" a dictator to please allow the people their human rights? When has this type of pacifism actually worked?

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #171 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 8:36am

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 7:21pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 6:35pm:

Oooh I see the regressive leftist has gotten a little worked up because now the spelling queen is out in full force!! Grin

You mispelt it. Just as many people misuse/mispell other words. Is English a second language for yourself?

Quote:

I have no problems with a Muslim person having a dialogue with me about the problems in western society, that's what living in a free and open society is all about (something you fail to understand I see). The difference is that I also won't straight away start yelling "westernphobic" because someone dares question the ideas behind western society. And that's the whole issue - the moment I criticise the ideas of Islam the regressive left, like you, forget the foundations of free society and straight away start calling me an Islamaphobe or telling me I have no right as I'm not Muslim. So I don't actually believe that you agree with universal human righs, or at the very least you fail to comprehend what that actually means.

I call you an "Islamophobe" because you are continually questioning something from a position of ignorance and dare I suggest prejudice? It's not an immediate response from me, I like to explore where a person stands on the issue before I identify they are being Islamophobic.

Would you though, accept someone from a completely different culture/religion/society questioning your private belief system? Not the basis of Western culture or anything like but rather what you personally believe in and talk about? Particularly when they do it from a position of ignorance and prejudice? One only has to look at the American posters in this forum to see what I'm talking about. They attack the very idea that Australia is a free, sovereign nation simply because it doesn't have a RKBA. Roll Eyes

Quote:

With regard to the bad parts of Islam being only amongst the backwards I disagree. I don't paint any individual Muslim with the backwards brush without understanding their opinions first. But the actual bad ideas of Islam are spread across Islamic states, so it isn't a few backwards people, and the pain of these bad ideas is inflicted on hundreds of millions.

Well, you've gone from the individual to the national level in one, broad, sweeping move there so perhaps its no wonder you have your ideas all mixed up.

Perhaps you need to differentiate between what the individual may or may not believe - in Australia, under Australian conditions versus what another individual may or may not believe in an Islamic society?

Quote:

At the very least, if you agree these ideas are backwards then you shouldn't be excusing them, because what you're fundamentally doing is allowing for them to inflict pain on people who don't even agree with the ideas.

It is a great deal more complex than that at a national level. Have a look at what is going to happen around the national plebiscite being planned about the recognition of Indigenous prior occupation of the Australian continent in the Constitution. You'll see some very ugly words spoken by some very racist people. Does that mean we should ignore what they say and believe? Roll Eyes

Quote:

The point is that it's not about how many Muslims believe these bad ideas (although stats reveal concerning figures), but rather that these bad ideas are being used to impose fascist regimes and no one seems to want to talk about it because 1) we don't want to impose and 2) we might offend when being critical of a bad idea. Just like you have throughout this dialogue, instead of confronting the bad ideas of Islam, which are fundamentally undemocratic, you seek to excuse them away with the Old Testament or some Other lame excuse that competely ignores the realities of today.

Well, I'm sorry but you keep using a label which has nothing do with Islam or Islamic regimes. Fascism has a specific meaning and is primarily concerned with European politics. So, lets just stop calling them "Facists", OK?

Then in some cases the regime was imposed on them and is maintained by American armed might and really doesn't have much to do with Islam. Just have a look at Egypt or Saudi Arabia, to see what I mean. In some, like Iran, they chose an Islamic regime. They had a revolution and overthrew the Shah, who had been imposed on them by American and British interests in their nation. Since then, the Ayatollahs have gone perhaps further than was necessary and the people have fought back, in a low-level manner. However, generally the people prefer to chose their own form of government over having one imposed on them from outside.

Quote:

As for your last bit about basically standing back and not saying a word, please tell me when pacifism against fascism or dictatorships has ever worked?

Who said anything about "not saying a word". I have continually made the point that berating and demanding something from someone rarely works. Asking them, often does. You however appear not to understand the difference. I wonder why? Roll Eyes

see response below

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The4thEstate

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #172 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 8:38am

mothra wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:57am:

FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab?

Man, do you need an education.

OK, let me put it this way -- in the words of Wikipedia:
Quote:

The Christian Bible (New Testament) does not mention female circumcision (i.e. removal of clitoral hood ) or female genital mutilation (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation). Christian authorities unanimously agree that FGM (i.e. clitoridectomy and infibulation) has no foundation in the religious texts of Christianity.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_views_on_female_genital_mutilation

So that's my point. The fact that some primitive cultures might practice it is on them, not on Christian doctrine.

Whereas with regard to Sunni Muslims, we have this summary in the same Wikipedia report:

Quote:

The historical religious view regarding the partial cutting of the clitoris, also known as Type One FGM, varies with the school of Islamic jurisprudence fiqh:

The Shafi'i school considers female circumcision to be wajib (obligatory).
The Hanbali school considers female circumcision to be makrumah (honorable) and strongly encouraged, to obligatory.
The Maliki school considers female circumcision to be sunnah (optional) and preferred.
The Hanafi school considers female circumcision to be sunnah (preferred).

As Mother Jones notes: "With the exception of a handful of countries, only a small percentage of women who undergo FGM believe the practice is required by religion. Still, that religion is Islam."

And Middle East Quarterly assesses it thusly:

Quote:

There are indications that FGM might be a phenomenon of epidemic proportions in the Arab Middle East. Hosken, for instance, notes that traditionally all women in the Persian Gulf region were mutilated. Arab governments refuse to address the problem. They prefer to believe that lack of statistics will enable international organizations to conclude that the problem does not exist in their jurisdictions.

It is not enough to consult Islamic clerics to learn about the mutilation of girls in Islamic societies—that is like asking the cook if the guests like the meal. U.N. agencies operating in the region ignore FGM statistics saying they have no applicable mandate to gather such data. Hosken describes it as a cartel of silence: men from countries were FGM is practiced "enjoy much influence at the U.N." and show no interest in tackling pressing social problems.

http://www.meforum.org/1629/is-female-genital-mutilation-an-islamic-problem

So let's not pretend that religion isn't a major factor.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #173 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 8:56am

I'm a little bemused that you think people should not question what one personally believes. This very discussion between you and me is about what we personally believe, and it's the foundations of freedom of speech and the sharing of ideas that we are allowed, and encouraged, to be critical of each other's opinions and beliefs. So, I have absolutely no problem with any person being able to discuss with me how they feel about the things I believe in, and if it happens that they are able to critically show me I am wrong then I am more than happy to accept. Just like I've accepted through many discussions and readings that I was in fact wrong to do what you have done throughout this thread, which is misunderstand arguments and simply place labels on people in an attempt to defend a fascist ideology (btw look up what fascist means as you have no idea; perhaps English isn't your native tongue). I have stopped doing this because it is through much reflection and discussions about my personal beliefs that led me to understand I was wrong.

The very fact you would even suggest that I cannot be critical of a persons beliefs shows to me that you have no real understanding of the basic human rights. Which in part explains very clearly why you have been ignorantly trying to defend the Islamic ideology and constantly missing the actual points being made. Given you have no understanding of the basis of freedom of speech I can appreciate why you have no problem with an ideology that fundamentally denies this. On this assessment alone, while I don't know what your opinions are on the Charlie hebdo terrorism attacks, I have very little doubt you would've done much victim blaming.

As for trying to label me an Islamaphobe, I don't really care because what has become abundantly clear is that you can't even comprehend the argument being made. For one, I am not directly critical of individual Muslim people and my arguments are about Islam as an ideology. If i speak with a Muslim person and it turns out they think it's okay to kill an apostate then yes, I would be critical of their opinion. But I don't believe every Muslim I meet believes this (despite the stats being worryingly high). To criticise the ideas of Islam is not to criticise individual Muslim, you nong. Try and comprehend this as it truly isn't hard.

For your comments relating to the causes of Islamic regimes, while I agree that the US should not do deals with Saudi Arabia, the regime in Saudi Arabia is based on the ideas of Islam and the US did not create it. the US did not create the ideology of the Iranian regime; Islam did. The regimes in Africa: also not created by the US but on the ideas of Islam. The different states in Malaysia and Indonesia who impose sharia law have nothing to do with the US or the west, all of this is based on the ideas of Islam. and the recent changes in brunei are also nothing to do with the US. So you can look for straw men wherever you want, but in order to actually get to a point where we can have real equality amongst men and women, and have actual universal rights for all people (and not just the west) then the first step is to work out the root cause. And when it comes to any state that bases itself on Islam, the root cause to the denial of liberal beliefs to people is the basis of fascist ideology that spawns from the bad ideas of Islam. The longer the regressive left denies this the longer all of this will continue.

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« Last Edit: Jul 15^th, 2016 at 9:10am by sir prince duke alevine »

Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #174 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 9:00am

mothra wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:57am:

FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab?

Man, do you need an education.

Really mothra? you are an intelligent person, don't regress to this argument when you've been shown time an again that the stats you are relying on are being misrepresented.

Also, I've been reading your book, but honestly I find Robert Fisk to be an incredible apologist and pacifist. I'd like to punch him in the face not because he's white, but because he's Robert Fisk Wink

Have you been reading Nick Cohen?

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Karnal

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #175 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 12:25pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 5:53pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 5:47pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 5:38pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:58pm:

We yawn putting up with your lies bwian, nobody at your forum is that why you troll this one? Roll Eyes

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley...

If I have lied, Baron, prove it.

What? You haven't? Amazing... Roll Eyes

Don't know nor care whether you lied. What I care about is your irrationality and delusion, which is quite evident.

You care about Australia, Alevine

Aussie for the Aussies, no?

What do you think about the opinion in the article, karnal?

Which article, Alevine?

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Karnal

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #176 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 12:28pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 9:00am:

mothra wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:57am:

FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab?

Man, do you need an education.

Really mothra? you are an intelligent person, don't regress to this argument when you've been shown time an again that the stats you are relying on are being misrepresented.

Also, I've been reading your book, but honestly I find Robert Fisk to be an incredible apologist and pacifist.

Robert Fisk is the Independent's Middle Eastern correspondent. He's lived in Turkey and Lebanon for over 20 years. He knows the key parties and players, and he's seen war. Lots of it.

I think if I was in Robert Fisk's shoes, I'd be a pacifist too.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #177 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 3:44pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 12:28pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 9:00am:

mothra wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:57am:

FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab?

Man, do you need an education.

Really mothra? you are an intelligent person, don't regress to this argument when you've been shown time an again that the stats you are relying on are being misrepresented.

Also, I've been reading your book, but honestly I find Robert Fisk to be an incredible apologist and pacifist.

Robert Fisk is the Independent's Middle Eastern correspondent. He's lived in Turkey and Lebanon for over 20 years. He knows the key parties and players, and he's seen war. Lots of it.

I think if I was in Robert Fisk's shoes, I'd be a pacifist too.

All the more reason he should see the problems of islamic regimes. Instead he is an apologist for osama bin laden, and likes to be punched in the face for being white.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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sir prince duke alevine

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #178 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 3:45pm

Karnal wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 12:25pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 6:40pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 5:53pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 5:47pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 5:38pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 14^th, 2016 at 4:58pm:

We yawn putting up with your lies bwian, nobody at your forum is that why you troll this one? Roll Eyes

http://static1.comicvine.com/uploads/scale_super/12/122743/2332811-yawn_20smiley...

If I have lied, Baron, prove it.

What? You haven't? Amazing... Roll Eyes

Don't know nor care whether you lied. What I care about is your irrationality and delusion, which is quite evident.

You care about Australia, Alevine

Aussie for the Aussies, no?

What do you think about the opinion in the article, karnal?

Which article, Alevine?

The op, karnal.

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Disclaimer for Mothra per POST so it is forever acknowledged: Saying 'Islam' or 'Muslims' doesn't mean ALL muslims. This does not target individual muslims who's opinion I am not aware of.

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Karnal

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Re: The truth about "islamaphobia"
Reply #179 - Jul 15^th, 2016 at 3:49pm

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 3:44pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 12:28pm:

sir prince duke alevine wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 9:00am:

mothra wrote on Jul 15^th, 2016 at 2:57am:

FGM has no more to do with Christianity than the hijab?

Man, do you need an education.

Really mothra? you are an intelligent person, don't regress to this argument when you've been shown time an again that the stats you are relying on are being misrepresented.

Also, I've been reading your book, but honestly I find Robert Fisk to be an incredible apologist and pacifist.

Robert Fisk is the Independent's Middle Eastern correspondent. He's lived in Turkey and Lebanon for over 20 years. He knows the key parties and players, and he's seen war. Lots of it.

I think if I was in Robert Fisk's shoes, I'd be a pacifist too.

All the more reason he should see the problems of islamic regimes. Instead he is an apologist for osama bin laden, and likes to be punched in the face for being white.

There's not many Islamic regimes in the Middle East, Alevine, but I'm curious.

Why have your posts become so angry and violent? What happened?

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