Australian Politics Forum - a lot of people agree with Sonia

John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #120 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 3:41pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 1:53pm:

Karnal wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 1:35pm:

The West divided up the Middle East into colonies, and then nation states. The West divvied some up along religious lines - Lebanon for Christians, for example. The West installed its own friends and military regimes. The West tried to take the Suez Canal, they kept the pipelines gushing, and fought over those pipelines. One reading of WWII is that Germany was beaten because the allies had more access to oil reserves. Throughout the Cold War.and into the post-Cold War era, this belief prevailled - particularly during the Bush II administration.

During the Arab Spring, people in the Middle East finally woke up.

Nonsense.

If it wasn't for the West there would have been no need for Arabic oil, and consequently the Arabs would never have evolved from their impoverished, diseased, nomadic, bedouin lifestyle.

Every structure in the Middle East has been paid for with Western money, and every improvement to the people of the Middle East has arrived through Western industrial enterprise, initiative, and invention paying for Arabic oil.

How much are we getting paid now for our mineral ores? Peanuts - FAR less than the West paid for Arabic oil.

and in the end that's what it all comes down too ... who controls the oil and the money. The Saudis help fund terrorism because the more bombs we drop, the more oil we buy.

we've had worse regimes in Africa and the west didn't really give a sh1t, we didn't invade ... as a token gesture we occasionally sent a 'peace keeping force' that was the equivalnet of sending a eunuch to a brothel ... apart from a few countries where we wanted the minerals they were left to sort it out for themselves.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #121 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 4:53pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 11:28am:

How exactly are the 80 people, run down and killed in Nice by a Muslim Arab they took in and gave citizenship to, responsible for their own deaths?

how are the thousands of women and kids killed in explosions caused by US bombs responsible for theirs?

you can try to cherry pick individual cases if you like, that's just deflection.

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:02pm:

Why is France being hit harder than others in the west despite interfering far less in the Middle East?

simply because they can ... they don't care if it's France, US, Australia or any other western country, they just care that it's a western country.

Well, by your logic, if the Westerners are responsible for the attacks on them by Muslims, Muslims must also be responsible for the attacks on them by the West.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #122 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 4:59pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 3:35pm:

That it's written in the Koran just doesn't cut it. We also have heaps of crap written in the bible but people don't blindly follow it.

Another ignorant dopey dim witted leftist trying to defend something he is clueless about, Falah did point out in this forum muslims cannot pick and choose what parts of Islam they believe in it's a package deal if they want those houris, this is a major difference between Islam and the buy-bull.

Allah says you cannot pick and choose right here-
quran.com/2/85

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Quantum

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #123 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 3:35pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 1:33pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 1:13pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 11:28am:

How exactly are the 80 people, run down and killed in Nice by a Muslim Arab they took in and gave citizenship to, responsible for their own deaths?

how are the thousands of women and kids killed in explosions caused by US bombs responsible for theirs?

you can try to cherry pick individual cases if you like, that's just deflection.

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:02pm:

Why is France being hit harder than others in the west despite interfering far less in the Middle East?

simply because they can ... they don't care if it's France, US, Australia or any other western country, they just care that it's a western country.

Then how does pulling out fix anything? We can pull forces out tomorrow, Israel is still there. So as long as Israel is still there they are going to keep blowing shlt up in the West? What if we pull out and Israel gets destroyed, do they keep blowing shlt up because we buy their oil and therefore have interest in the area? What if we pull out, Israel is gone, we cut off all business in the area, what's the next issue? We need to stop using the suez? Get rid of the border patrols between Greece and turkey? The borders between south Eastern Europe and the rest of the continent? Is Russia considered a western nation from the perspective of these clowns, and if so, does the west get bombed every time another skirmish happens in the southern parts of Russia?

Pulling out and basically building a political and trade wall around the Middle East isn't going to do shlt. Islam doesnt want to be contained but wants to spread to all parts of the world for the glory of Allah. Problem is the fanatical sand monkeys are out of their dunes and have been invited with arms open into western nations. These are Islamic fanatics that won't tolerate having infidels living on Allah's planet. Do you really think these walking time bombs are just going to settle down and live normal lives in western countries if we simple pull out of the Middle East? When pigs fry at Mecca!

I don't care about Israel ... As far as I'm concerned Israel is part of the problem. They want to live in the ME, they need to look after themselves.

Come on genius, what about Israel? If we pull everything out of the Middle East obviously Israel is not going to cease to exist as the Jews will stay there no matter what we do. So if the west being in Middle East is the problem and us leaving it is the solution, how the hell will leaving stop us getting attacked as long as Israel exist? Remember, according to you our presence is the issue, and as far as the Muslims are concerned Israel is a part of the west. How the hell do you get Israel out of the Middle East? Unless you have an answer our withdrawal of everything else but Israel would be meaningless.

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The rest of your hysterics doesn't wash.

Only because you have no answer. From their point of view Russia is the west. The "west" has plenty of borders with Islamic nations that must be defended. We will still need to use the Middle East's water and air ways. How exactly do you avoid Islam just by pulling our armies out of the area?

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the real problem is that you're given them a reason to be pissed off with the west, then you cry that they retaliate once they're pissed off. That it's written in the Koran just doesn't cut it. We also have heaps of crap written in the bible but people don't blindly follow it.

Play a different tune. Jesus never said for his followers to wipe out anyone who doesn't bow before God. Muhammad expected just that. How many Muslims have to blow shlt up in the name of Allah before you get a clue and see the pattern? They are doing exactly what the Quran told them to do!

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That's an excuse, used by you and used by the recruiters for of the terrorist cells to get simple people who are pissed off the do their bidding. You think if you dropped a bomb on my family I wouldn't retaliate anyway I could? you're damn right I would.

there is no easy solution. We've tried getting involved and sending soldiers, we've been doing it for over 100 years. Things are worse than ever. It's time to try something new and leave them to themselves.

This whole if we just ignore it, it will go away BS is not going to do anything. This insanity that they are just getting revenge for what we did to them... But don't dare hit them back when they kill us, is naive to the extreme. If their entire reason for running people over with trucks today is out of revenge for things in the past then it's not going to stop tomorrow just because we laid down guns today. Even once the bombs stop they will still be pissed off, so do we just put up with it for decades to come until they hopefully give up?

There is simply no logic in the 'west at fault' position. If we want to look at first causes Islam attacked the west first. Since then there has been an ongoing battle of cultures between Islam and Europe. If we have been hitting each other back and forth since they chucked the first punch over a millennia ago, then how is the West at fault for bombing them now? The war has been going on since the days or swords and arrow.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #124 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:30pm

The solution is speak the truth.

Muslim Middle Eastern societies are terrible because they are created by Muslim Middle Easterners. The people there have created societies over the centuries that are backward, cruel, authoritarian and repressive.

America is the way it is because it is created by Americans, Russia by Russians, Japan by the Japanese, Arab and Persian societies by Arabs and Persians, so on and so on.

The tension with Islam is unresolved and is played out all over the world thanks to modern travel and communication and technologies. But it is still a tension and conflict within Islam, created and prepetuated by Muslims, especially Arab, Persian and Paki/Indian Muslims.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74257 Gender:	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #125 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:10pm Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 4:59pm: muslims cannot pick and choose what parts of Islam they believe in it's a package deal and yet hundreds of millions do just that for their whole lives
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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #126 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:21pm

Frank wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 4:53pm:

Well, by your logic, if the Westerners are responsible for the attacks on them by Muslims, Muslims must also be responsible for the attacks on them by the West.

gobbledygook designed to excuse your behavior

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

Come on genius, what about Israel?

What about it? I don't care about Israel, I care about Australia and to a lessor extent Italy. Israel has shown that it can defend itself, if it struggles perhaps they should get out of the settlements and get back behind their borders. They'll still have access to the wests technology ...

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

Only because you have no answer

or because it's hogwash. But you're right, I don't have all the answers, neither do you or anyone else out there. There is no one answer that will satisfy everyone. Therefore I'm concentrating on an answer that will satisfy Australia, and to a lessor extent Europe. What I do know is that simply doing more of the same isn't going to work. Why would you expect it to suddenly work it when it's been failing for the last 100 yrs?

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

Play a different tune.

or you can face reality

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

This whole if we just ignore it, it will go away BS is not going to do anything.

I didn't say ignore it, I said get out of the M.E.

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

There is simply no logic in the 'west at fault' position

it's not about fault. We're waaayyyy beyond fault. It's about repeating the same friggen mistakes time and time and time and time again expecting a different result. How long before you accept that it's not working and try something different?

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freediver

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #127 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:24pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:50pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:46pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:21pm:

Do people have the right to be bigots?

unfortuantely, yes they do

You think freedom of speech and freedom of thought is unfortunate? You should be celebrating it.

what's unfortunate is that for some people it seems to come with no responsibilities. The right to free speech shouldn't automatically include the right to abuse that right.

Can you give an example of such abuse? Would you say that the right to free speech does not come with the right to mock Muhammed?

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Mr Hammer

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #128 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:26pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 4:59pm:

muslims cannot pick and choose what parts of Islam they believe in it's a package deal

and yet hundreds of millions do just that for their whole lives Cheesy

Most Pitbull Terriers don't bite either but they were banned. What's the dif?

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #129 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:28pm Quote: It's about repeating the same friggen mistakes time and time and time and time again expecting a different result. How long before you accept that it's not working and try something different? Why don't muslims and their apologists accept that islam isn't working and try something else.
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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #130 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:28pm

freediver wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:24pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:50pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:46pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:21pm:

Do people have the right to be bigots?

unfortuantely, yes they do

You think freedom of speech and freedom of thought is unfortunate? You should be celebrating it.

what's unfortunate is that for some people it seems to come with no responsibilities. The right to free speech shouldn't automatically include the right to abuse that right.

Can you give an example of such abuse? Would you say that the right to free speech does not come with the right to mock Muhammed?

behead the infidels
put her in a chaff bag and throw her out to sea

and I care as much about Muhammed as I do Felix the cat or frosty the snowman, actually less, the last two at least provide some entertainment for my kids

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #131 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:30pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:26pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:10pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 4:59pm:

muslims cannot pick and choose what parts of Islam they believe in it's a package deal

and yet hundreds of millions do just that for their whole lives Cheesy

Most Pitbull Terriers don't bite either but they were banned. What's the dif?

gee, I don't know, perhaps the fact that they're dogs Cheesy

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #132 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:32pm

moses wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:28pm:

Quote:

It's about repeating the same friggen mistakes time and time and time and time again expecting a different result. How long before you accept that it's not working and try something different?

Why don't muslims and their apologists accept that islam isn't working and try something else.

How the frig would I know. I told you, leave the muslims to it and they'll either figure it out or kill each other trying

I'm not looking to solve their mistakes, I'm looking to fix ours ...

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Quantum

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #133 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:32pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:21pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

Come on genius, what about Israel?

What about it? I don't care about Israel, I care about Australia and to a lessor extent Italy. Israel has shown that it can defend itself, if it struggles perhaps they should get out of the settlements and get back behind their borders. They'll still have access to the wests technology ...

What about Israel you ask? Let me repeat it again...

If we pull everything out of the Middle East obviously Israel is not going to cease to exist as the Jews will stay there no matter what we do. So if the west being in Middle East is the problem and us leaving it is the solution, how the hell will leaving stop us getting attacked as long as Israel exist? Remember, according to you our presence is the issue, and as far as the Muslims are concerned Israel is a part of the west. How the hell do you get Israel out of the Middle East? Unless you have an answer our withdrawal of everything else but Israel would be meaningless.

So how do you help Australia by pulling out when the real angst of Islam aggression is Israel that ain't going anywhere? If they are going to run people down in France because some American dropped a bomb on them, why will they suddenly stop attacking the west while Israel is still there?

It doesn't matter what you care about Australia or how few f@cks you give about Israel, if what you say is true that from the Muslim point of view that all the west is the enemy and a target for revenge, then Australia (west) will still be target as long as Israel (west) is still there.

So if we all pull all our troops out and Israel stays put, what the hell has your great plan of western withdraw solved?

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #134 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:35pm

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:32pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 6:21pm:

Quantum wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 5:14pm:

Come on genius, what about Israel?

What about it? I don't care about Israel, I care about Australia and to a lessor extent Italy. Israel has shown that it can defend itself, if it struggles perhaps they should get out of the settlements and get back behind their borders. They'll still have access to the wests technology ...

What about Israel you ask? Let me repeat it again...

If we pull everything out of the Middle East obviously Israel is not going to cease to exist as the Jews will stay there no matter what we do. So if the west being in Middle East is the problem and us leaving it is the solution, how the hell will leaving stop us getting attacked as long as Israel exist? Remember, according to you our presence is the issue, and as far as the Muslims are concerned Israel is a part of the west. How the hell do you get Israel out of the Middle East? Unless you have an answer our withdrawal of everything else but Israel would be meaningless.

So how do you help Australia by pulling out when the real angst of Islam aggression is Israel that ain't going anywhere? If they are going to run people down in France because some American dropped a bomb on them, why will they suddenly stop attacking the west while Israel is still there?

It doesn't matter what you care about Australia or how few f@cks you give about Israel, if what you say is true that from the Muslim point of view that all the west is the enemy and a target for revenge, then Australia (west) will still be target as long as Israel (west) is still there.

So if we all pull all our troops out and Israel stays put, what the hell has your great plan of western withdraw solved?

I don't care about Israel

Israel will have to sort it's own sh1t out.

as to what will it solve? it will create LESS refugees to flood the west, it creates less terrorists and it will make Australia less of a target ... not a bad result if you ask me ... it certainly achieves more than 100 yrs of meddling has achieved.

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