Australian Politics Forum - a lot of people agree with Sonia

Frank Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 44702 Gender:	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #45 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 6:57pm John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm: Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm: He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility what is he responsible for? http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1468652877/80#80
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freediver

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #46 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm

Quote:

Be reasonable. Its not Waleed's fault that her statement was full of factual errors, and you can't expect a prominent and proud muslim to start accepting the inflamatory "ban muslims" arguments. The point Waleed was trying to get across here is that its no longer about trying to get the other side to agree with the other's side's arguments - we're way past that.

I think it is not to late to try to get Muslims to appreciate freedom and democracy. If you think it is too late, what exactly is the goal of your Islamic reform?

Quote:

Its now about trying to end this destructive cycle of one-upmanship - the endless point scoring, mocking, sneering and abusing each other that gets us absolutely nowhere. I guess its a kind of "agree to disagree" situation, but at the same time reaching out to meet each other in the middle. It will take a huge effort for people to actually give up trying to "win" the argument and start forgiving and accommodating, but thats what is needed.

What should we accomodate Gandalf? Does this mean no more Muhammed cartoons?

Quote:

And I think the key to all this is to accept the fact that whatever view we have on this topic, we are (mostly) all decent human beings whose hearts are in the right place.

Except of course the terrorists. Let's not forget about them in our efforts to accomodate.

Quote:

We all want whats best for humanity, we just have different ways of approaching that goal.

Some for example think it is too late to use rational argument.

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #47 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:42pm

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 6:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1468652877/80#80

I'm not going to read a whole thread of anti islam dribble... answer the question, what is Waleed responsible for?

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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #48 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm Sonia is great. Hopefully more people in TV land will start speaking up.
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Gordon

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #49 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:42pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 6:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1468652877/80#80

I'm not going to read a whole thread of anti islam dribble... answer the question, what is Waleed responsible for?

Link?

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #50 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:49pm

Gordon wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:42pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 6:57pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1468652877/80#80

I'm not going to read a whole thread of anti islam dribble... answer the question, what is Waleed responsible for?

Link?

to what?

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Lord Herbert

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #51 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:02pm

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Sonia is great. Hopefully more people in TV land will start speaking up.

That's exactly what will happen as more Muslims commit atrocities in Western countries.

The annual bill to the Australian taxpayers for crime management, incarceration, the dole, the Disability Support Pension, detention centres, and security agencies with regard to our Muslims - could float the economies of some of Africa's poorer nations.

Overall they are a zero financial benefit to this country.

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #52 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:04pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:02pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Sonia is great. Hopefully more people in TV land will start speaking up.

That's exactly what will happen as more Muslims commit atrocities in Western countries.

The annual bill to the Australian taxpayers for crime management, incarceration, the dole, the Disability Support Pension, detention centres, and security agencies with regard to our Muslims - could float the economies of some of Africa's poorer nations.

Overall they are a zero financial benefit to this country.

You're still here? weren't you going onto a Canadian crochet forum or something?

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Secret Wars Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 3928 Gender:	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #53 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:04pm Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm: Sonia is great. Hopefully more people in TV land will start speaking up. Not likely, they would have noted what happened to her.
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Lord Herbert

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #54 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:09pm

Secret Wars wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Sonia is great. Hopefully more people in TV land will start speaking up.

Not likely, they have observed what happened to her.

There was a big article in the DT today written by Andrew Bolt in support of her while he crucified the luvvies who were condemning her.

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #55 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:11pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:09pm:

Secret Wars wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 8:04pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:44pm:

Sonia is great. Hopefully more people in TV land will start speaking up.

Not likely, they have observed what happened to her.

There was a big article in the DT today written by Andrew Bolt in support of her while he crucified the luvvies who were condemning her.

of course there was ... she opened her gob to defend him and his opinion, the least he could do would be to reciprocate

ahh, and before you start with your usual crap, I don't have a problem with her voicing her concerns ... everyone has a right to their opinion

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #56 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:21pm Do people have the right to be bigots?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #57 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:22pm

Poor FD, forced yet again into another 'Islam and freedom' discussion...

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm:

I think it is not to late to try to get Muslims to appreciate freedom and democracy.

I doubt very much you think that FD - based on your posting history. How can someone who holds Muhammad as the best example for mankind "appreciate" freedom and democracy? Thats your own argument FD, so I don't think you are being honest here. At best you would appealing to what you see as 'non-devout' muslims.

But on the same token, do you think its too late to convince people like sprint and herb that banning Islam is not the right way to go - using rational arguments? Frankly I do. Sprint has now literally restricted his responses to my reasoned arguments with "you're a cultist" type quips. If the patterns that go on here are any sort of guide, it seems Waleed is right - the more you appeal to reason, the more people dig their heels in.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm:

What should we accomodate Gandalf? Does this mean no more Muhammed cartoons?

Actually with that argument I would have to "accommodate" banning muslim immigration.

But as I already said - the solution is not bowing to the other's argument, its more about agreeing to disagree. I think empathy has a big role to play - we are able to harden our attitudes on these debating points because we don't put ourselves in the other shoes: people who dismiss Sonia as a bigot need to appreciate the legitimate fear she has as a non-muslim for her and her children, just as Sonia needs to appreciate the legitimate fear that a muslim would have, as a member of a vulnerable minority, when their own country officially says "muslims are not welcome to come here". Who knows, maybe exercising empathy is a starting point - a way of segueing into the rational debate. Whats clear though is that at the moment rational debate isn't working.

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« Last Edit: Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:28pm by polite_gandalf »

A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #58 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #59 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

I'm not Gandalf you twit ... now what is Walleed responsible for?

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