Australian Politics Forum - a lot of people agree with Sonia

John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74257 Gender:	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #60 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:21pm: Do people have the right to be bigots? unfortuantely, yes they do
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freediver

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #61 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:45pm

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I think it is not to late to try to get Muslims to appreciate freedom and democracy.

I doubt very much you think that FD

It worked on you Gandalf.

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How can someone who holds Muhammad as the best example for mankind "appreciate" freedom and democracy?

Good question Gandalf. Do tell.

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Thats your own argument FD, so I don't think you are being honest here. At best you would appealing to what you see as 'non-devout' muslims.

Ah.

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But on the same token, do you think its too late to convince people like sprint and herb that banning Islam is not the right way to go

I expect if the terrorism stopped, they would go back to hassling hippies and dole bludgers.

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- using rational arguments?

I think stopping the terrorists would work a lot better.

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Actually with that argument I would have to "accommodate" banning muslim immigration.

Perhaps we should get all unreasonable in our defence of freedom and democracy?

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But as I already said - the solution is not bowing to the other's argument, its more about agreeing to disagree.

Good idea. Let's keep disagreeing. Agreed?

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I think empathy has a big role to play - we are able to harden our attitudes on these debating points because we don't put ourselves in the other shoes: people who dismiss Sonia as a bigot need to appreciate the legitimate fear she has as a non-muslim for her and her children

How did you and Karnal respond when I pointed out that fear was my motivation for posting the Muhammed cartoon?

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just as Sonia needs to appreciate the legitimate fear that a muslim would have, as a member of a vulnerable minority, when their own country officially says "muslims are not welcome to come here"

You should be afraid Gandalf. This is going to get worse before it gets better.

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia Reply #62 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:46pm John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm: freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:21pm: Do people have the right to be bigots? unfortuantely, yes they do You think freedom of speech and freedom of thought is unfortunate? You should be celebrating it.
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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #63 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:50pm

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:46pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:21pm:

Do people have the right to be bigots?

unfortuantely, yes they do

You think freedom of speech and freedom of thought is unfortunate? You should be celebrating it.

what's unfortunate is that for some people it seems to come with no responsibilities. The right to free speech shouldn't automatically include the right to abuse that right.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #64 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:22pm:

Poor FD, forced yet again into another 'Islam and freedom' discussion...

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm:

I think it is not to late to try to get Muslims to appreciate freedom and democracy.

I doubt very much you think that FD - based on your posting history. How can someone who holds Muhammad as the best example for mankind "appreciate" freedom and democracy? Thats your own argument FD, so I don't think you are being honest here. At best you would appealing to what you see as 'non-devout' muslims.

But on the same token, do you think its too late to convince people like sprint and herb that banning Islam is not the right way to go - using rational arguments? Frankly I do. Sprint has now literally restricted his responses to my reasoned arguments with "you're a cultist" type quips. If the patterns that go on here are any sort of guide, it seems Waleed is right - the more you appeal to reason, the more people dig their heels in.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm:

What should we accomodate Gandalf? Does this mean no more Muhammed cartoons?

Actually with that argument I would have to "accommodate" banning muslim immigration.

But as I already said - the solution is not bowing to the other's argument, its more about agreeing to disagree. I think empathy has a big role to play - we are able to harden our attitudes on these debating points because we don't put ourselves in the other shoes: people who dismiss Sonia as a bigot need to appreciate the legitimate fear she has as a non-muslim for her and her children, just as Sonia needs to appreciate the legitimate fear that a muslim would have, as a member of a vulnerable minority, when their own country officially says "muslims are not welcome to come here". Who knows, maybe exercising empathy is a starting point - a way of segueing into the rational debate. Whats clear though is that at the moment rational debate isn't working.

For Muslims the choice is stark: freedom and democracy OR Mohammed and sharia. There is no possibility of having both because they are incompatible. A liberal democratic sharia-compliant society is an oxymoron.

If you are for sharia then you are an enemy of liberal democracy.

And don't be so outrageously two-faced: the 'vulnerable minority' is responsible for the overwhelming wounding of their host societies around the world. You are the aggressors, not the 'vulnerable' minority. Muslims in the West have far, FAR more rights and privileges than they have in any of the Muslim countries where they are not the 'vulenrable minority'. Yet they attack in the name of Islam. And you give them shelter as a 'vulnerable minority'.
What a disgrace you are, an outrageously dishonest and despicable, opportunistic distorter and propagandist. You must not be allowed to get away with such utter, stinking crap.

We never hear from you and the Waleed Alys of this world about the truly 'vulnerable minorities' persecuted - jailed, killed, mutilated, raped, humiliated - by Muslims the world over. But should someone point that out you you, you immediately writhe, whine and claim victim status.

What a disgrace.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #65 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:52pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

I'm not Gandalf you twit ... now what is Walleed responsible for?

For Islamic terrorism.

He is a Muslim.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #66 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 10:04pm

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:45pm:

Good question Gandalf. Do tell.

Its your argument FD - you need to reconcile that with your bogus claim that you believe muslims can embrace freedom and democracy. Unless of course you care to take back all your memes about Islam necessarily a religion about following a murderous thug? No I didn't think so.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:45pm:

I think stopping the terrorists would work a lot better.

Great idea FD - and how do you suggest that? Engaging the terrorists in rational debate perhaps? That could work.

Personally I'd go for stop invading muslim countries and bombing villages, but thats just me.

Oh looky here - I do believe we are at yet another impasse! Gosh, isn't that what Waleed is trying to say? What do you think Sonia would suggest as the way to stop terrorism? Oh wait, she's already said - stop muslim immigration. Should we all just get on board that idea FD?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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John Smith

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #67 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 10:06pm

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:52pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

I'm not Gandalf you twit ... now what is Walleed responsible for?

For Islamic terrorism.

He is a Muslim.

He is no more responsible for Islamic terrorism than you are responsible for the acts of the KKK or the IRA

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #68 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:15pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 10:04pm:

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:45pm:

Good question Gandalf. Do tell.

Its your argument FD - you need to reconcile that with your bogus claim that you believe muslims can embrace freedom and democracy. Unless of course you care to take back all your memes about Islam necessarily a religion about following a murderous thug? No I didn't think so.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:45pm:

I think stopping the terrorists would work a lot better.

Great idea FD - and how do you suggest that? Engaging the terrorists in rational debate perhaps? That could work.

Personally I'd go for stop invading muslim countries and bombing villages, but thats just me.

Yes, it just you and the other few million arsecovering Muslims.

Islamic terrorism started with Mohammed - long before anyone invaded or bombed Muslim villages.

And for you to somehow insinuate that Muslims will drive truck into a crowds in Nice or machine gun people in theatres or newspaper offices in Paris because there is a war on the other side of the world just means that you Muslim are not to be allowed into the West because you will do do violence against the very people who have taken you in.

Muslim countries are attacked and invaded because they re aggressive, violent, hostile and murderous - just like nonMulsim countries that are aggressive, violent, hostile and murderous.

Th VAST majority of Islamic countries are NOT invaded or attacked so it's not about Islam - otherwise all Islamic countries would be attacked. Aggressive, hostile and murderous NONMUSLIM countries are also attacked (Germany, Japan, Argentina, etc, etc)

You are a dishonest disgrace and a shameless falsifier and distorter. You do want a sectarian division in the world.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #69 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:16pm

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 10:06pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:52pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

I'm not Gandalf you twit ... now what is Walleed responsible for?

For Islamic terrorism.

He is a Muslim.

He is no more responsible for Islamic terrorism than you are responsible for the acts of the KKK or the IRA

I do not identify as KKK or IRA.
He does identify as Muslim.

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mothra

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #70 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:16pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 10:06pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:52pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

I'm not Gandalf you twit ... now what is Walleed responsible for?

For Islamic terrorism.

He is a Muslim.

He is no more responsible for Islamic terrorism than you are responsible for the acts of the KKK or the IRA

I do not identify as KKK or IRA.
He does identify as Muslim.

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #71 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:27pm

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:16pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 10:06pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:52pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:38pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

I'm not Gandalf you twit ... now what is Walleed responsible for?

For Islamic terrorism.

He is a Muslim.

He is no more responsible for Islamic terrorism than you are responsible for the acts of the KKK or the IRA

I do not identify as KKK or IRA.
He does identify as Muslim.

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

The reality is, Waleed and me and most muslims in Australia would identify far, far more with Frank and his values than they would with the average ISIS member.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #72 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:33pm

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

Because that ONE thing he has in common with them is the motivation for and explanation of Muslim terrorism.

He shares the single most pertinent characteristic with Muslim terrorists - Islam.

The ONE thing he never wants to talk about.

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mothra

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #73 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:33pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

Because that ONE thing he has in common with them is the motivation for and explanation of Muslim terrorism.

He shares the single most pertinent characteristic with Muslim terrorists - Islam.

The ONE thing he never wants to talk about.

The one thing he has in common with them is the "motivation for and explanation of Muslim terrorism" is it?

He openly speaks of practicing a very different typo of Islam than terrorists. Have you not heard him? Read him? What do you mean he never speaks about it?

Have you looked for it?

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Baronvonrort

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #74 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

When we look at the PEW survey results for supporting suicide bombing the numbers are large, Indonesia for example has 9% who say sometimes or often it's justified.

9% of over 200 million muslims is around 20 million muslims in Indonesia who say suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified, that is just one country.
pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-Islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-...

Hundreds of millions of muslims support Islamic terror according to PEW survey results, the leftards have their heads buried in the Arabian sand.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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