Australian Politics Forum - a lot of people agree with Sonia

polite_gandalf

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #75 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:44pm

So a guy whose spent pretty much his entire public life promoting and advocating
democracy, equal rights, justice, and peaceful coexistence (seriously, read some of his work, or listen to his daily contributions on TV and radio) - now needs to apologise for the very things he's been fighting against all this time?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #76 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:48pm

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:51pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:22pm:

Poor FD, forced yet again into another 'Islam and freedom' discussion...

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm:

I think it is not to late to try to get Muslims to appreciate freedom and democracy.

I doubt very much you think that FD - based on your posting history. How can someone who holds Muhammad as the best example for mankind "appreciate" freedom and democracy? Thats your own argument FD, so I don't think you are being honest here. At best you would appealing to what you see as 'non-devout' muslims.

But on the same token, do you think its too late to convince people like sprint and herb that banning Islam is not the right way to go - using rational arguments? Frankly I do. Sprint has now literally restricted his responses to my reasoned arguments with "you're a cultist" type quips. If the patterns that go on here are any sort of guide, it seems Waleed is right - the more you appeal to reason, the more people dig their heels in.

freediver wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 7:16pm:

What should we accomodate Gandalf? Does this mean no more Muhammed cartoons?

Actually with that argument I would have to "accommodate" banning muslim immigration.

But as I already said - the solution is not bowing to the other's argument, its more about agreeing to disagree. I think empathy has a big role to play - we are able to harden our attitudes on these debating points because we don't put ourselves in the other shoes: people who dismiss Sonia as a bigot need to appreciate the legitimate fear she has as a non-muslim for her and her children, just as Sonia needs to appreciate the legitimate fear that a muslim would have, as a member of a vulnerable minority, when their own country officially says "muslims are not welcome to come here". Who knows, maybe exercising empathy is a starting point - a way of segueing into the rational debate. Whats clear though is that at the moment rational debate isn't working.

For Muslims the choice is stark: freedom and democracy OR Mohammed and sharia. There is no possibility of having both because they are incompatible. A liberal democratic sharia-compliant society is an oxymoron.

If you are for sharia then you are an enemy of liberal democracy.

And don't be so outrageously two-faced: the 'vulnerable minority' is responsible for the overwhelming wounding of their host societies around the world. You are the aggressors, not the 'vulnerable' minority. Muslims in the West have far, FAR more rights and privileges than they have in any of the Muslim countries where they are not the 'vulenrable minority'. Yet they attack in the name of Islam. And you give them shelter as a 'vulnerable minority'.
What a disgrace you are, an outrageously dishonest and despicable, opportunistic distorter and propagandist. You must not be allowed to get away with such utter, stinking crap.

We never hear from you and the Waleed Alys of this world about the truly 'vulnerable minorities' persecuted - jailed, killed, mutilated, raped, humiliated - by Muslims the world over. But should someone point that out you you, you immediately writhe, whine and claim victim status.

What a disgrace.

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rhino

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #77 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:49pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

When we look at the PEW survey results for supporting suicide bombing the numbers are large, Indonesia for example has 9% who say sometimes or often it's justified.

9% of over 200 million muslims is around 20 million muslims in Indonesia who say suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified, that is just one country.
pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-Islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-...

Hundreds of millions of muslims support Islamic terror according to PEW survey results, the leftards have their heads buried in the Arabian sand.

9 percent is actually pretty low. That figure heartens me, I think you would find more support for terrorism amongst westerners.

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Frank

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #78 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:49pm

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:33pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

Because that ONE thing he has in common with them is the motivation for and explanation of Muslim terrorism.

He shares the single most pertinent characteristic with Muslim terrorists - Islam.

The ONE thing he never wants to talk about.

The one thing he has in common with them is the "motivation for and explanation of Muslim terrorism" is it?

He openly speaks of practicing a very different typo of Islam than terrorists. Have you not heard him? Read him? What do you mean he never speaks about it?

Have you looked for it?

He is a sunni Muslim.

He talks about everything except the responsibility of Muslims for the way Islam is today.

Muslims, Buddhists, athesist are not responsible for the shape Christianity is in today. Christians are.
The same way Muslims are responsible for the way Islam is today. Waleed is a practicing Muslim. he shares responsibility for the way Islam is today - but he will forever talk about everyone else's responsibility for the way Islam is except Muslims.

A disgrace.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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mothra

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #79 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:54pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:44pm:

So a guy whose spent pretty much his entire public life promoting and advocating
democracy, equal rights, justice, and peaceful coexistence (seriously, read some of his work, or listen to his daily contributions on TV and radio) - now needs to apologise for the very things he's been fighting against all this time?

Astonishing, isn't it?

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If you can't be a good example, you have to be a horrible warning.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #80 - Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:56pm

rhino wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

When we look at the PEW survey results for supporting suicide bombing the numbers are large, Indonesia for example has 9% who say sometimes or often it's justified.

9% of over 200 million muslims is around 20 million muslims in Indonesia who say suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified, that is just one country.
pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-Islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-...

Hundreds of millions of muslims support Islamic terror according to PEW survey results, the leftards have their heads buried in the Arabian sand.

9 percent is actually pretty low. That figure heartens me, I think you would find more support for terrorism amongst westerners.

9% of over 200 million is not a trivial figure, when you compare the figures that say never to sometimes-often rarely it doesn't look too good.

Islamic terror is not something I worry about, how can Islam reform when they have the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy, if you cannot leave it or criticise it how can you reform it.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #81 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:05am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:56pm:

9% of over 200 million is not a trivial figure, when you compare the figures that say never to sometimes-often rarely it doesn't look too good.

You should be a bit more honest about this B - its actually 1% "often" justified and 8% "sometimes" justified. And "civilian target" isn't necessarily a crowd of people - it can be a government office that symbolises an occupying or despotic regime.

Tell me honestly Baron, if Australia was under a brutal occupation and you were fighting a legitimate war of self defense against aggressors - would you ever consider its "sometimes" justified to bomb a civilian target that is an important office for the occupiers? I don't think it makes someone a monster or even unreasonable to rationalise this way.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #82 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:13am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:05am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:56pm:

9% of over 200 million is not a trivial figure, when you compare the figures that say never to sometimes-often rarely it doesn't look too good.

You should be a bit more honest about this B - its actually 1% "often" justified and 8% "sometimes" justified. And "civilian target" isn't necessarily a crowd of people - it can be a government office that symbolises an occupying or despotic regime.

Tell me honestly Baron, if Australia was under a brutal occupation and you were fighting a legitimate war of self defense against aggressors - would you ever consider its "sometimes" justified to bomb a civilian target that is an important office for the occupiers? I don't think it makes someone a monster or even unreasonable to rationalise this way.

The figures are for suicide bombing Gandalf, something which muslims have been in denial about since 9/11.

The fact is many muslims say suicide bombing is sometimes-often-rarely justified and the numbers that say never justified are not that high.

Why does Malaysia have 33% saying suicide bombings are often-sometimes-rarely acceptable who are they at war with?

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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rhino

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #83 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:14am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:56pm:

rhino wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

When we look at the PEW survey results for supporting suicide bombing the numbers are large, Indonesia for example has 9% who say sometimes or often it's justified.

9% of over 200 million muslims is around 20 million muslims in Indonesia who say suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified, that is just one country.
pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-Islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-...

Hundreds of millions of muslims support Islamic terror according to PEW survey results, the leftards have their heads buried in the Arabian sand.

9 percent is actually pretty low. That figure heartens me, I think you would find more support for terrorism amongst westerners.

9% of over 200 million is not a trivial figure, when you compare the figures that say never to sometimes-often rarely it doesn't look too good.

Islamic terror is not something I worry about, how can Islam reform when they have the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy, if you cannot leave it or criticise it how can you reform it.

personally, I think the Indos are quite moderate, theres no death penalty for apostasy or blasphemy and their government is secular. Its the middle eastern version we need to be more wary of.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #84 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:19am

rhino wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:14am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:56pm:

rhino wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:37pm:

mothra wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:19pm:

And most Muslim's aren't terrorists.

Why should he apologise for people he has only one thing in common with? And that commonality is severely stretched.

When we look at the PEW survey results for supporting suicide bombing the numbers are large, Indonesia for example has 9% who say sometimes or often it's justified.

9% of over 200 million muslims is around 20 million muslims in Indonesia who say suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified, that is just one country.
pewglobal.org/2014/07/01/concerns-about-Islamic-extremism-on-the-rise-in-middle-...

Hundreds of millions of muslims support Islamic terror according to PEW survey results, the leftards have their heads buried in the Arabian sand.

9 percent is actually pretty low. That figure heartens me, I think you would find more support for terrorism amongst westerners.

9% of over 200 million is not a trivial figure, when you compare the figures that say never to sometimes-often rarely it doesn't look too good.

Islamic terror is not something I worry about, how can Islam reform when they have the death penalty for blasphemy and apostasy, if you cannot leave it or criticise it how can you reform it.

personally, I think the Indos are quite moderate, theres no death penalty for apostasy or blasphemy and their government is secular. Its the middle eastern version we need to be more wary of.

Alexander Aan the atheist was thrown in jail what was his crime, you need to list a religion from one of the 6 approved they don't accept no religion.

Aceh has become more fun-da-mental with Islam apart from that I agree they are more moderate.

9% is still a large number of muslims who think suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified.

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #85 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:22am

rhino wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:14am:

............ personally, I think the Indos are quite moderate, theres no death penalty for apostasy or blasphemy and their government is secular. Its the middle eastern version we need to be more wary of.

Quote:

The 60-year-old Christian woman was publicly caned for selling alcohol

In an unprecedented use of Shari‘a on a non-Muslim in Indonesia, a Christian woman in the conservative Aceh province has reportedly been caned for selling alcohol.

The 60-year-old woman was caned 30 times in the presence of hundreds of onlookers on Tuesday, an official told Agence France-Presse (AFP).

Aceh is one of the most conservative provinces of Muslim-majority Indonesia, and the only part of the country that enforces sharia law for crimes like adultery, consumption of alcohol and homosexuality. On the same day, a pair of German tourists were reportedly reprimanded by local authorities and let off with a warning for wearing bikinis at one of the province’s beaches.

A Muslim couple accused of adultery received 100 lashes along with the Christian woman on Tuesday.

Although the religious law was previously only applicable to Muslims, an amendment that took effect last year extended its reach to practitioners of other religions in particular cases, according to an official from the prosecutor’s office of Central Aceh.

“This is the first case of a non-Muslim being punished under Islamic criminal bylaw,” the official, Lili Suparli, told AFP.

Aceh has operated under Shari‘a since 2001, when it was declared partially autonomous in an effort to quell a separatist uprising.

— With reporting by Yenni Kwok

http://time.com/4291832/indonesia-aceh-christian-muslim-sharia-law-alcohol/

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polite_gandalf

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #86 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:22am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:13am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:05am:

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 11:56pm:

9% of over 200 million is not a trivial figure, when you compare the figures that say never to sometimes-often rarely it doesn't look too good.

You should be a bit more honest about this B - its actually 1% "often" justified and 8% "sometimes" justified. And "civilian target" isn't necessarily a crowd of people - it can be a government office that symbolises an occupying or despotic regime.

Tell me honestly Baron, if Australia was under a brutal occupation and you were fighting a legitimate war of self defense against aggressors - would you ever consider its "sometimes" justified to bomb a civilian target that is an important office for the occupiers? I don't think it makes someone a monster or even unreasonable to rationalise this way.

The figures are for suicide bombing Gandalf, something which muslims have been in denial about since 9/11.

The fact is many muslims say suicide bombing is sometimes-often-rarely justified and the numbers that say never justified are not that high.

Why does Malaysia have 33% saying suicide bombings are often-sometimes-rarely acceptable who are they at war with?

Baron you didn't answer my question - can you ever sympathise with the view that bombing (suicide or otherwise) a civilian structure can "sometimes" be justified like in the example I gave?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Sprintcyclist

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #87 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:25am

Sprintcyclist wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:22am:

rhino wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:14am:

............ personally, I think the Indos are quite moderate, theres no death penalty for apostasy or blasphemy and their government is secular. Its the middle eastern version we need to be more wary of.

Quote:

The 60-year-old Christian woman was publicly caned for selling alcohol

In an unprecedented use of Shari‘a on a non-Muslim in Indonesia, a Christian woman in the conservative Aceh province has reportedly been caned for selling alcohol.

The 60-year-old woman was caned 30 times in the presence of hundreds of onlookers on Tuesday, an official told Agence France-Presse (AFP).

Aceh is one of the most conservative provinces of Muslim-majority Indonesia, and the only part of the country that enforces sharia law for crimes like adultery, consumption of alcohol and homosexuality. On the same day, a pair of German tourists were reportedly reprimanded by local authorities and let off with a warning for wearing bikinis at one of the province’s beaches.

A Muslim couple accused of adultery received 100 lashes along with the Christian woman on Tuesday.

Although the religious law was previously only applicable to Muslims, an amendment that took effect last year extended its reach to practitioners of other religions in particular cases, according to an official from the prosecutor’s office of Central Aceh.

“This is the first case of a non-Muslim being punished under Islamic criminal bylaw,” the official, Lili Suparli, told AFP.

Aceh has operated under Shari‘a since 2001, when it was declared partially autonomous in an effort to quell a separatist uprising.

— With reporting by Yenni Kwok

http://time.com/4291832/indonesia-aceh-christian-muslim-sharia-law-alcohol/

Quote:

............... In August 2011, Muslim militants burned down three Christian churches on Sumatra. In an attack, in west Java in February 2011, three Ahmadiyyans were killed. A cameraman recorded the scene, posted on YouTube. In September 2010, Islamist militants burned down two churches, and stabbed an elderly Christian as he tried to defend the third site..............

http://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/3579/indonesia-sharia

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rhino

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #88 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 1:03am

Baronvonrort wrote on Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 12:19am:

Alexander Aan the atheist was thrown in jail what was his crime, you need to list a religion from one of the 6 approved they don't accept no religion.

yes, that is true. there is however no compulsion under their constitution to be Muslim.

Quote:

Aceh has become more fun-da-mental with Islam apart from that I agree they are more moderate.

yes. Aceh always was the most fundamentalist province. it needs to be said however that Indonesia has a policy of allowing their different provinces to follow their own law.

Quote:

9% is still a large number of muslims who think suicide bombing is sometimes or often justified.

too many , i agree. I do think though that the same question posed in a country like Saudi Arabia would result in a 90, percent yes response.

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Lord Herbert

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Re: a lot of people agree with Sonia
Reply #89 - Jul 22^nd, 2016 at 7:38am

Frank wrote on Jul 21^st, 2016 at 9:34pm:

John Smith wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

Frank wrote on Jul 20^th, 2016 at 10:37pm:

He's reaching out so as to avoid taking responsibility

what is he responsible for?

Gandalf, you are wasting your time with us kuffars. Your job is among your own co-religionists. But you are just not up to arguing with them because you are afraid, like the rest of us, that they will harm you in the name of Islam. It is easier and safer for you, for

Waleed Aly

, for the mufti and the rest of the PC Muslim brigade to bang on about the 'islamophobia' of godless kuffar who will never harm you beyond calling all of you gutless cowards for not directing your efforts where you KNOW you should.

Shouting 'islamophobia is cheap and discredited. Dissuading the jihadis is dangerous. So all of you choose the cheap and discredited because you are afraid.

Excellent post.

Until gangalf and Waleed and all the other Damage Control apologist 'engineers' for Islam admit to the fact that Islam is the source of all this murderous jihadi mayhem - and not the fault of 'Islamophobia', bigotry, racism, or xenophobia on the part of Western countries whose media and governments are overwhelmingly supportive of their Muslim Communities - they'll continue their misdirecting of public attention away from where the fault truly lies.

The West's invasion of Iraq has absolutely nothing to do with the morality that lies behind the Sunni and Shia trying to genocide each other into extinction ever since Saddam's torture chambers went out of business.

The removal of Saddam simply opened up a Pandora's Box of Islamic hostilities that has been brewing for centuries, waiting patiently like a genii in a Magic Lamp for the chance to explode upon the Middle East.

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