Australian Politics Forum - Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...

NorthOfNorth

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #90 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:51am

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:29am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:22am:

Nobody said they had the 'authority' to search the booth. None of these uniformed personnel claimed to have the authority to make a search, any more than the girls at the Supermarket checkout counters claim to have The Authority to check your bag.

They do have the right to check your bag.

They can't touch the contents, though.

And, customers have the right to refuse the inspection (in which case, they can be asked to leave the store and never return).

in which case, they can be asked to leave the store

Which is ironic given that's what you were doing in the first place?

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #91 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:57am

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:07am:

So the attempt to exercise unlawful authority is moral? For whom?

Nobody said they had the 'authority' to search the booth. None of these uniformed personnel claimed to have the authority to make a search,

But they seemed to be aware of the tactic of manufacturing probable cause or inviting people to leave their vehicle (i.e. to remove themselves from a 'private place' re: 4th Amendment)...

Why didn't they just do the quick once over and wave them on? What was all that 'Are you a US citizen' stuff? I'm convinced it wasn't just as simple as saying 'yes' then being waved on...

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:22am:

What do you do when the girl at the checkout counter asks if you would mind her checking your bag?

Honest answer now.

To be honest, I have never been into a shop with a bag in the first place except for maybe a see through plastic bag from an adjacent shop... And I've never been asked to show the contents of those bags.

I have, a couple of times, seen people refuse to open their bags and the attendant in both cases called security... But I didn't hang around to watch the outcome.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ... Reply #92 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:58am ..
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greggerypeccary

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #93 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:15am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:51am:

greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:29am:

Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:22am:

Nobody said they had the 'authority' to search the booth. None of these uniformed personnel claimed to have the authority to make a search, any more than the girls at the Supermarket checkout counters claim to have The Authority to check your bag.

They do have the right to check your bag.

They can't touch the contents, though.

And, customers have the right to refuse the inspection (in which case, they can be asked to leave the store and never return).

in which case, they can be asked to leave the store

Which is ironic given that's what you were doing in the first place?

True.

However, they can ask you to not return.

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rhino

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #94 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:22am

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:57am:

I have, a couple of times, seen people refuse to open their bags and the attendant in both cases called security... But I didn't hang around to watch the outcome.

Security staff act mainly on bluff, they have the same powers of arrest as any other citizen.

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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ... Reply #95 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:23am greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:15am: True. However, they can ask you to not return. Yes, but its getting a bit 'CIA' if they have to keep a file on all 'banished' customers.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #96 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:24am

rhino wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:57am:

I have, a couple of times, seen people refuse to open their bags and the attendant in both cases called security... But I didn't hang around to watch the outcome.

Security staff act mainly on bluff, they have the same powers of arrest as any other citizen.

Yes, I'm guessing that's true.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #97 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:27am

rhino wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:57am:

I have, a couple of times, seen people refuse to open their bags and the attendant in both cases called security... But I didn't hang around to watch the outcome.

Security staff act mainly on bluff, they have the same powers of arrest as any other citizen.

Correctamundo.

"In public places, security guards and bouncers have no greater arrest powers than those of an ordinary citizen."

Legal Aid

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rhino

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #98 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:27am

John Smith wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 7:52am:

rhino wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2016 at 9:20pm:

Why would anyone support the actions of these officers to detain anyone they felt like for no valid reason?

so if the police stop a muslim and are concerned he might be a terrorist, but have no proof, you don't think they should be allowed to stop him?

if they are concerned he might be a terrorist then one would presume there is a valid reason for that concern. Noone mentioned proof John, hence my comment about having a valid reason

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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #99 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:30am

rhino wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:27am:

John Smith wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 7:52am:

rhino wrote on Oct 2^nd, 2016 at 9:20pm:

Why would anyone support the actions of these officers to detain anyone they felt like for no valid reason?

so if the police stop a muslim and are concerned he might be a terrorist, but have no proof, you don't think they should be allowed to stop him?

if they are concerned he might be a terrorist then one would presume there is a valid reason for that concern. Noone mentioned proof John, hence my comment about having a valid reason

hence my comment about having a valid reason

Or, in keeping with this thread... 'probable cause'

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rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ... Reply #100 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:36am Probable cause implies that you suspect they have committed a crime, theres other reasons you may want to detain a person.
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NorthOfNorth

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Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ...
Reply #101 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:39am

rhino wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:22am:

NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 10:57am:

I have, a couple of times, seen people refuse to open their bags and the attendant in both cases called security... But I didn't hang around to watch the outcome.

Security staff act mainly on bluff, they have the same powers of arrest as any other citizen.

And circling back to the OP...

Those 'border' 'officers' were also bluffing...

Which (to allude to a previous post) is not an example of inherent morality, just a form of deceit.

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rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ... Reply #102 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:43am I suspect that those border control officers only have powers of arrest and detention under certain circumstances such as at property designated as under control of immigration.
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Lord Herbert Gold Member Offline Posts: 34441 Gender:	Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ... Reply #103 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 12:52pm NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 11:24am: Yes, I'm guessing ....
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NorthOfNorth Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 17258 Gender:	Re: Here's a smartalec making a pest of himself ... Reply #104 - Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 12:55pm Lord Herbert wrote on Oct 3^rd, 2016 at 8:57am: Herbert has left the building planet.
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