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Exactly as I predicted (Read 1567 times)
Karnal
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #30 - Oct 21st, 2016 at 5:32pm
 
issuevoter wrote on Oct 21st, 2016 at 4:47pm:
I'm kind of bored with this campaign. I'll be glad when its over. Just how the Republicans fall back and regroup will be interesting. That is, if they can. Immigration will soar, illegal aliens will receive amnesty, by which the Democrats will do anything to increase their base.


The only amnesty for illegal aliens in the US was issued by George W Bush in 2001. This was the policy he campaigned on in the election - a policy designed to get the Hispanic vote. Bush was perfectly up-front with this - he announced it in the primaries. Back in Texas, he won office with the support of the Hispanics and Bible Belt. It was this strategy that got him over the line as president in 2000 - or just. It was the closest election in the modern era.

If it wasn't for his brother denying votes in Florida, Bush would most probably not have become president, but he did. And he was.

The Republicans are the traditional party of choice for Hispanics, many of whom, like Cubans, are loyal to the party who stands hardest on Castro. However, the Republicans have been the most loyal to illegal immigrants in particular. By illegal immigrants, we're talking about Hispanics. For some reason, Canadians are excluded. I guess they're legal. 

The Democrats have traditionally stood against illegal immigration to protect union jobs. With only a handful of anti-immigration Republican politicians in border states like Arizona and New Mexico, the Republican Party turns a blind eye to illegal immigration. Their friends in business demand cheap labour. This is no secret in the US, which is what Trump means by the "status quo".

Trump is referring to the immigration policies of both parties. The US is built on immigration. Immigration provides the US with constant economic growth. You will find very few Republicans speaking out against immigration - you'll actually find a few more conservative Democrats speaking out. But this is the status quo.

Immigration in the US is bi-partisan, just as it used to be in Australia before John Howard changed things in response to Pauline Hanson.

But without a doubt, the Republicans are the party of choice for illegal immigrants, and the Bush amnesty in 2001, issuing millions of Green Cards to illegal immigrants, is only one small reason why.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #31 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 8:31am
 
Open borders, and all that entails (including causing a flood of illegal immigrants) is a core plank of neo-liberal conservativism. It is a key part of their war against the labor movement and their struggle for fair wages and rights for workers. As you said, its traditionally been the left parties who oppose open borders.

The problem for centre right parties who drive this neo-liberal agenda (think Reaganism and thatcherism) is that their ranks will inevitably attract a significant segment of the traditional, social conservatives who oppose such mass immigration on social cohesion/family values grounds. That is the basis of the great schism we are seeing in just about all centre-right parties in the west today - but probably most dramatically in the US. Its the so called 'establishment' that is doggedly holding on to neo-liberal agenda, but they are being yanked to the far right by a significant section of their rank and file. Commentators routinely make the mistake of distinguishing between the "extremists" and the "moderates" - but in reality there is nothing moderate about the neo-liberal economic agenda. And of course, a key dynamic in the split is the so called "extremists's" rejection of the neo-liberal agenda.

Thus the rise of the far right across the western world is both a nationalist/racist movement, but more importantly, its a revolt against the economic agenda that is created for and by big business. This is the genesis of Brexit, the rise of One Nation, and of course the nomination of Trump.

Whats interesting about the American case is that it has the most pronounced 2-party system in the western world. Only about 10% of voters vote for someone other than the two major parties. No other country comes close. Therefore, rather than splintering off into another party like we see with say One Nation and UKIP in the UK, the far right just snipes at Republicans from within the Republican party. Until now they have generally coped with this - the establishment plays lip service to the far right - an outrageous racist statement here, a symbolic conservative gesture there, which generally keeps the plebs satisfied while they go full steam ahead the neo-liberal agenda. Useful idiots like fox news and Bill OReilly play their part by distracting them with confected outrage against the "liberals". All that changed in this election because Trump didn't play the establishment game - he didn't say "lets be outraged - but express that outrage through the republican party". Instead he said "lets be outraged against the republican party". Thus he awakened the simmering conservative resentment against the establishment, and very much ran his campaign as an anti-Republican Republlican (while interestingly enough Bernie Sanders did exactly the same on the left). The nomination of Trump was the announcement of the official revolt of the far-right within the Republican party - and the reality is that Trump's candidacy is every bit an anti-Republican candidacy as Clinton is. Hence it is little wonder that the republican establishment is coming out in droves to attack and disendorse Trump. And it will be interesting to see what happens to the Repugs after Trump's defeat - will the splinter be permanent, or will the neo-liberals once again be able to hoodwink the far right in their party?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #32 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 9:27am
 
All true, G, but the difference between Amerika and the rest of the world is the primaries. In many US states, I can go out and vote for the major parties' candidate, whether I'm a party member or not.

Trump got through on his celebrity status - not his political track record. He showed how the primary system leaves the main political parties wide open to this kind of trojan horse.

Both Trump and Sanders have toyed with other parties and causes. Sanders was elected to office as an independent. Both only joined their parties to stand for president.

Trump has shown just how dangerous this system is for the parties. With a bit of money and fame, anyone can be their candidate for president. No checks or screening - Trump's past has been left to come out in the campaign.

The Republicans will need to regroup and clear this mess up. They don't want a Trump - no one does.
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #33 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 9:27am
 
Mr Hammer wrote on Oct 21st, 2016 at 1:34pm:
greggerypeccary wrote on Oct 21st, 2016 at 1:33pm:
Mr Hammer wrote on Oct 21st, 2016 at 1:32pm:
Look at the leftards on here. "I don't like Clinton but Trump is worse???".


Yes.

Your point?

Clinton is a warmonger!!! What's worse than that?? Grin Grin Grin Grin Grin

Name a President of the last, say, 80 years who could not be described as a warmonger?

(Hint... There is really only one... And look what Americans thought of him!)
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #34 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 9:34am
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2016 at 11:28am:
I'm not dissapointed that Trump will not win, but I am dissapointed that such an unworthy candidate as Hillary has been gifted such a clear run. Which of course is entirely Trump's fault - he deserves nothing less than the humiliation he is about to face. But what a shame the repugs couldn't muster up even a half-credible candidate that might really have taken Hillary to task on the serious question marks over her head: the emails, Libya, her war-mongering and her cozy relationship with the big end of town, her foundation's dodgy dealings in Afghanistan etc etc... She doesn't have to worry about any of that - and she should have. Instead all we're talking about is Trump's endless bafoonry. And no, its not because of some grand conspiracy against Trump - its because Trump is Trump - a bafoon, and bafoon's will be exposed as bafoons. And in this case, it caused a candidate with considerable baggage and a mountain of questions to be answered - to not have to face any of that music. None at all.

All American Presidents (at least since WW2) have been involved in military actions which were considered to be wrong or illegal (bar one).

Cozying up to the 'big end' of town? Are there ex-Presidents who haven't or wouldn't try that?

The emails??? Honestly, how much does that really keep you up at night?

Dodgy dealings in where? Afghanistan? The whole country is a dodgy deal!

We are all psychologically trapped in anti-Clinton memes which, if we thought about it rationally, we don't really believe or care about.

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polite_gandalf
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #35 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 12:00pm
 
NorthOfNorth wrote on Oct 22nd, 2016 at 9:34am:
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 21st, 2016 at 11:28am:
I'm not dissapointed that Trump will not win, but I am dissapointed that such an unworthy candidate as Hillary has been gifted such a clear run. Which of course is entirely Trump's fault - he deserves nothing less than the humiliation he is about to face. But what a shame the repugs couldn't muster up even a half-credible candidate that might really have taken Hillary to task on the serious question marks over her head: the emails, Libya, her war-mongering and her cozy relationship with the big end of town, her foundation's dodgy dealings in Afghanistan etc etc... She doesn't have to worry about any of that - and she should have. Instead all we're talking about is Trump's endless bafoonry. And no, its not because of some grand conspiracy against Trump - its because Trump is Trump - a bafoon, and bafoon's will be exposed as bafoons. And in this case, it caused a candidate with considerable baggage and a mountain of questions to be answered - to not have to face any of that music. None at all.

All American Presidents (at least since WW2) have been involved in military actions which were considered to be wrong or illegal (bar one).

Cozying up to the 'big end' of town? Are there ex-Presidents who haven't or wouldn't try that?

The emails??? Honestly, how much does that really keep you up at night?

Dodgy dealings in where? Afghanistan? The whole country is a dodgy deal!

We are all psychologically trapped in anti-Clinton memes which, if we thought about it rationally, we don't really believe or care about.



I think you slightly misunderstand my angle here.

The fact that Clinton is a regular run-of-the-mill establishment candidate with regular run-of-the-mill establishment shenanigans is the whole issue here. Simply dismissing it by saying 'oh but she's no different to all the others' misses the point.

The point is that for once this election put establishment 'business as usual' politics in the spotlight. For once establishment candidates on both sides were attacked because of their establishment links. Unfortunately, Trump's bafoonry thwarted a golden opportunity to put real pressure on the establishment and declare to them 'enough is enough' and force real change. Instead we became so fixated with Trump's bafoonry that in the end the establishment has actually positioned itself as the solution, the saviour from the prospect of a Trump disaster  - when they were supposed to be the target, not Trump.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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NorthOfNorth
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Re: Exactly as I predicted
Reply #36 - Oct 22nd, 2016 at 12:34pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Oct 22nd, 2016 at 12:00pm:
I think you slightly misunderstand my angle here.

The fact that Clinton is a regular run-of-the-mill establishment candidate with regular run-of-the-mill establishment shenanigans is the whole issue here. Simply dismissing it by saying 'oh but she's no different to all the others' misses the point.

The point is that for once this election put establishment 'business as usual' politics in the spotlight. For once establishment candidates on both sides were attacked because of their establishment links. Unfortunately, Trump's bafoonry thwarted a golden opportunity to put real pressure on the establishment and declare to them 'enough is enough' and force real change. Instead we became so fixated with Trump's bafoonry that in the end the establishment has actually positioned itself as the solution, the saviour from the prospect of a Trump disaster  - when they were supposed to be the target, not Trump.

I take your point, but (at the risk of sounding cynical), I believe sudden radical change is a con, sold and consumed mainly to and by the young.

Its also dangerous in that, 'Those who stop believing in something, they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything...

Hence Trump... And what happened with Trump? For a while many didn't just believe in him, they believed anything he said even when he contradicted himself and blatantly lied at an unprecedented rate even for a politician (let alone a wannabe politician).

Sudden and rapid change is as almost impossible with society as it is with personal psychological change... Just try writing with your non usual hand... Hell, try to just not smoke!

We are naturally inclined to want to believe sudden change is possible (which is why many spend millions to hear the ramblings of latter-day shamans and psychological faith healers), but life experience soon teaches us it ain't.

We should remember the Arab Spring in Egypt as a cautionary tale of what happens when people believe sudden change is possible by believing in anything... In their case - Just overthrow the old regime which by that they believed (without any further thought) would bring on some kind of Arab 'Age of Aquarius'...
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