Australian Politics Forum - Jakarta Governor questioned by police

freediver

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #90 - Nov 19^th, 2016 at 9:57pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:50pm:

Gordon wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:08pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 6:29pm:

So far, Karnal hasn't given an opinion on this. Karnal saw Jarkarta's governor on the 7.30 Report saying this was not about Islam, but his campaign against corruption.

So who to believe? The Christian governor and the victim of the anti-blashphemy campiagn?

Or the Jihadists?

We can put this in a multiple choice if you'd prefer.

Lets examine what cards out Governor of Jakarta has to play. Hey can go with the 'it's a corruption thing' or he can go with 'it's a Muslim thing'. How do you think the latter would work out for him? Wink

Muslims vote for him. I doubt blaming Islam would go very well for him, Gordon, do you?

Ahok's been blaming corruption for some time. Here's the comments that got him into hot water:

Quote:

“So it can be that in your subconscious that you, ladies and gentlemen, you can’t vote for me because you’ve been lied to, with Surat Almaidah 51 and the like. That’s your right. If you feel you can’t vote for me because you fear you’ll go to hell, because you’ve been lied to, no worries. That’s your personal call.”

Ahok is clearly blaming his religious knucklehead opponents and not the Koran.

Obviously. If he blamed the Koran, he would be dead by now. At least now he knows better than to use Surat Almaidah and lie in the same sentence, so it's all good eh Karnal. Lesson learned, time for peace and unity again, and shutting up about Islam?

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Karnal

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #91 - Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:04pm

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Obviously. If he blamed the Koran, he would be dead by now. At least now he knows better than to use Surat Almaidah and lie in the same sentence, so it's all good eh Karnal. Lesson learned, time for peace and unity again, and shutting up about Islam?

I'm not too sure if you're standing up for Ahok or putting him in the tinted apologist basket, FD. Would you care to elaborate?

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #92 - Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:20pm I see him as a victim of Islam's relentless march against freedom and democracy.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95304 Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #93 - Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:38pm freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:20pm: I see him as a victim of Islam's relentless march against freedom and democracy. So you're on his side, eh? What about his level of tint?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #94 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:03am I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested.
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Yadda

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #95 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 10:34am

Karnal wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:38pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 10:20pm:

I see him as a victim of Islam's relentless march against freedom and democracy.

So you're on his side, eh?

What about his level of tint?

Karnal,

So in your universe of 'free debate', .....anyone who disagrees with your POV [or criticises ISLAM], is a racist ?

Karnal,

In expressing such a view, aren't you proving that you, yourself, are a practicing bigot ?

Dictionary;

bigot = = a person who is prejudiced in their views and intolerant of the opinions of others.

Bigots, are those people who are,

".....intolerant of the opinions of others."

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95304 Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #96 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 1:11pm freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:03am: I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested. Should he be free to have his views reinterpreted by people in other countries who don't know anything about his political situation?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #97 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 5:00pm

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Again Gandalf, the protestors were calling for his head because of what he said about Islam. Of course he is going to make it about anything but Islam. Criticising corruption etc does not mean he was not swayed by the threats to his life. Why do you keep dodging this point?

I'm "dodging" it because I'm trying to stick to the actual facts of the case. Its quite possible that he now gets nightmares every night about the threats to his life, which has caused him to radically change his behaviour in some way - but we just haven't seen any evidence to suggest this. Not even you have even attempted to present any. For this reason, this entirely speculative discussion becomes completely pointless. It is also a logical fallacy to insist on a claim by attempting to prove a negative. So yeah, I tend to dodge those - until such time we see some evidence to support the idea.

Quote:

So, less in total than the number that attended the protest? Did freedom of speech get a mention anywhere?

less eh? Oh yes, of course - 10s of thousands prayed at the mosques which is obviously less than the 10s of thousands that attended the protests.... um... wait...

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #98 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 5:08pm

freediver wrote on Nov 19^th, 2016 at 7:11pm:

Gandalf likes to quote him going with the "corruption" option as proof that the protests have not affected his willingness to talk about Islam.

Close. But no. Its actually that Gandalf likes to see evidence that the protests affected his willingness to talk about Islam - before he takes seriously the notion that the protests affected his willingness to talk about Islam.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Frank

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #99 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 6:07pm

Karnal wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 1:11pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:03am:

I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested.

Should he be free to have his views reinterpreted by people in other countries who don't know anything about his political situation?

Why not?

What an idiotic question - only you could come up with it, you etc, etc, etc...

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« Last Edit: Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:00pm by Frank »

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freediver

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #100 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 6:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 5:00pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 8:10pm:

Again Gandalf, the protestors were calling for his head because of what he said about Islam. Of course he is going to make it about anything but Islam. Criticising corruption etc does not mean he was not swayed by the threats to his life. Why do you keep dodging this point?

I'm "dodging" it because I'm trying to stick to the actual facts of the case. Its quite possible that he now gets nightmares every night about the threats to his life, which has caused him to radically change his behaviour in some way - but we just haven't seen any evidence to suggest this. Not even you have even attempted to present any. For this reason, this entirely speculative discussion becomes completely pointless. It is also a logical fallacy to insist on a claim by attempting to prove a negative. So yeah, I tend to dodge those - until such time we see some evidence to support the idea.

Quote:

So, less in total than the number that attended the protest? Did freedom of speech get a mention anywhere?

less eh? Oh yes, of course - 10s of thousands prayed at the mosques which is obviously less than the 10s of thousands that attended the protests.... um... wait...

You have presented the evidence yourself Gandalf - he is sticking to the corruption talking point and not mentioning the elephant in the room. You just think it means the opposite of what it does. What kind of evidence would you expect? A signed affidavit that he has learned his lesson and won't talk about Islam or the Koran any more?

This is perhaps the clearest case we could get of Islam destroying freedom of speech. All it takes to realise this is empathy, the ability to put yourself in someone else's shoes, rather than defaulting to defending murderous Islamics.

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Karnal

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #101 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:09pm

Frank wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 6:07pm:

Karnal wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 1:11pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 20^th, 2016 at 9:03am:

I think he should be free to say whatever he wants about Islam without fear of getting lynched or arrested.

Should he be free to have his views reinterpreted by people in other countries who don't know anything about his political situation?

Why not?

What an idiotic question - only you could come up with it, you etc, etc, etc...

Intelligence and integrity again, eh?

Tell me, Frank, which fine country do you come from? You haven't said.

Is it anywhere near Jakarta?

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Frank

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #102 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:28pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 18^th, 2016 at 1:18pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 8:21pm:

So it is an accident that blasphemy is illegal?

Blasphemy laws are quaint laws that exist in one form or another in most countries around the world. Even the free-est of countries have archaic, anti-freedom laws on the books.

For example?

And where do you have mobs on the streets of Western countries in defence of such archaic anti-freedom laws??

You are just not genuine, Gandalf. What you see in Indonesia and Malaysia and the rest of the Islamic world is the incompatibility of free exchange of ideas and Submission. It is a tension that will only be resolved if either freedom or Submission gives way. And Submission has never given way and never will. You can't be a free and also Submit to a 7th century warlord's ideas of the good life.

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Frank

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #103 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:33pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 17^th, 2016 at 3:47pm:

Gordon, if Ahok gets elected in February in an overwhelmingly muslim city - as he is widely tipped to be - would you be so bold to acknowledge it as mainstream, tolerant and secular Indonesian Islam triumphing over a small, but noisy fringe element - and refusing to cower to its bullying?

I know its too much to ask of FD.

Why are these 'fringe elements' intimidating others in the name of Islam - that's what I want top know.

Why does Islam lend itself so readily to such 'fringe intimidations'. Why is Islam a weapon of intimidation in 2016??

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95304 Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #104 - Nov 20^th, 2016 at 8:52pm You're still not saying, Frank. We need to establish that you're not one of them. Where are you from?
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