Australian Politics Forum - Jakarta Governor questioned by police

freediver

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #135 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:25pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:51pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:49pm:

John Smith wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

Because of the protesters.

bullsh1t ... wishful thinking

Could you understand him needing extra personal security in the wake of the protests John?

sure, so did trump and hillary when they were campaigning .... did it really change anything long term FD?

Neither Hillary nor Trump are entirely free to wander the streets of the US. That may not be a big change. Ahok however is no longer free to talk about Islam the way he used to, and there will be plenty more Indonesians feeling pressured to limit what they say about Islam.

That you cannot see the difference, or appreciate the change, only demonstrates the willingness of the apologists to deny reality in order to facilitate Islam's agenda of destroying freedom unchallenged.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74257 Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #136 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:33pm freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:25pm: Neither Hillary nor Trump are entirely free to wander the streets of the US. That may not be a big change But Ahok hiring an extra body guard is a big change?
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Yadda

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #137 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 1:25pm

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:25pm:

.....you cannot see the difference, or appreciate the change, only demonstrates the willingness of the apologists to deny reality in order to facilitate Islam's agenda of destroying freedom unchallenged.

If one wishes to enslave people, constrain their capacity for independent thought - not their hands; for the chain of dependence is incomparably stronger than the chain of iron.

- from, Law v Freedom

If you are breathing, and you won't be beaten, .....then you can't be beaten, while breath remains within you.

We can die [and we will die], ....but what free man would willingly surrender his life, and the lives of his loved ones, to a philosophy whose followers are avowed LIARS [treaty-breakers / covenant-breakers], thieves, rapists and murderers ?

.

"....he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him;.....

......For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it;"

Natural Law....

Quote:

"16. The state of war is a state of enmity and destruction; and therefore declaring by word or action, not a passionate and hasty, but sedate, settled design upon another man's life puts him in a state of war with him against whom he has declared such an intention, and so has exposed his life to the other's power to be taken away by him, or any one that joins with him in his defence, and espouses his quarrel; it being reasonable and just I should have a right to destroy that which threatens me with destruction; for by the fundamental law of Nature, man being to be preserved as much as possible, when all cannot be preserved, the safety of the innocent is to be preferred, and one may destroy a man who makes war upon him, or has discovered an enmity to his being, for the same reason that he may kill a wolf or a lion, because they are not under the ties of the common law of reason, have no other rule but that of force and violence, and so may be treated as a beast of prey, those dangerous and noxious creatures that will be sure to destroy him whenever he falls into their power.
17. And hence it is that he who attempts to get another man into his absolute power does thereby put himself into a state of war with him; it being to be understood as a declaration of a design upon his life. For I have reason to conclude that he who would get me into his power without my consent would use me as he pleased when he had got me there, and destroy me too when he had a fancy to it; for nobody can desire to have me in his absolute power unless it be to compel me by force to that which is against the right of my freedom- i.e. make me a slave..."

Of the State of War

- John Locke (1632-1704)

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Gordon

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #138 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 7:02pm

Update:

JAKARTA - The fate of Jakarta Governor Basuki Tjahaja Purnama, who is facing charges for insulting Islam, is now in the hands of the Attorney-General's Office (AGO).

Police Chief Tito Karnavian confirmed on Monday (Nov 28) that investigators have completed their probe and handed over the case to state prosecutors last Friday.

The AGO will now have two weeks to study the police findings and decide if the governor, better known by his nickname Ahok, should answer to the charges in court.

The 826-page case dossier contained interviews police investigators conducted with the Chinese-Christian politician as well as some 40 other witnesses, including various experts in linguistics, religion as well as criminal law.

Deputy Attorney-General for Crimes, Mr Noor Rachmad, told Antara news on Friday that his unit will study the case and decide if it has met the requirements under Indonesia's Criminal Code for Ahok to be brought before the court.

"I cannot say how many days it will take exactly, but we will do it as soon as possible," said Mr Noor Rachmad when asked when a decision would be taken by the AGO.

The blasphemy offence against Ahok carries a maximum jail term of five years.

Ahok is seeking to be re-elected as Jakarta governor in February next year. He and his running mate Djarot Saiful Hidayat are backed by the ruling Indonesian Democratic Party - Struggle (PDI-P) as well as a strong coalition of political parties, including Golkar, Indonesia's second largest party after the PDI-P.

They are up against the Gerindra Party pair of former education minister Anies Baswedan and businessman Sandiaga Uno, and former military officer Agus Harimurti Yudhoyono - son of former president Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono - and veteran bureaucrat Sylviana Murni.

Ahok was a shoo-in for re-election until a video clip of him talking to a group of constituents in September was posted online. In the video, he was alleged to have told them not to be misled by his opponents who cited a verse in the Quran to urge Muslims not to vote for a non-Muslim.

He has since apologised for his remarks but that did not stop some Muslim groups as well as the hardline Islamic Defenders Front (FPI) from staging a large-scale protests to call for his arrest earlier this month, which followed a smaller street march in October.

Despite the ongoing probe against Ahok, a third rally is being planned by the FPI on Dec 2. Police have said they detected a hidden agenda to overthrow the government led by President Joko Widodo, a close ally of Ahok, through these demonstrations.

Last Wednesday, the police charged private school lecturer Buni Yani, who had uploaded the video of Ahok, for inciting hatred. "Buni Yani has spread hate and triggered public conflict," said Jakarta police spokesman Awi Setiyono.

If found guilty, Buni may face a maximum six-year jail term.

http://www.straitstimes.com/asia/se-asia/attorney-general-to-decide-if-jakarta-g...

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #139 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 7:07pm

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

My bad. To answer your question, no you are wrong, yet again. My "take-home message" is what I say it is, not what you say it is, and you cannot substitute your own version just because you find my actual words inconvenient. You will find no shortage of specific and general comments about this issue littered throughout this thread Gandalf. Don't blame me if I give you generalisations when you ask for a "take-home message". Blame your own mangled english.

Forgive me FD, but your "actual words" aren't answering my question. Amazing the lengths you go to to avoid answering this most simple question.

Third time shall we? Do you believe Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? Why are you so afraid to answer? This really is extraordinary. Well, actually no its not really. You do this all the time.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #140 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:33pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 12:25pm:

Neither Hillary nor Trump are entirely free to wander the streets of the US. That may not be a big change

But Ahok hiring an extra body guard is a big change? Grin

It is another nail in the coffin of freedom of speech at the hands of Islam.

Quote:

Forgive me FD, but your "actual words" aren't answering my question.

Yes they are. Perhaps you should read your question again. If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.

BTW, am I correct that you are now asking me whether I believe my own "take-home message"?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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John Smith Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 74257 Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #141 - Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:56pm freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm: It is another nail in the coffin of freedom of speech at the hands of Islam. and yet despite many requests, you've been unable or unwilling to substantiate that.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #142 - Nov 29^th, 2016 at 3:55pm

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

Yes they are. Perhaps you should read your question again. If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.

Are you saying its stupid asking whether you think Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam? Is a "stupid" question defined as one you are too terrified to answer?

Don't be afraid FD, its a simple yes or no.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #143 - Nov 29^th, 2016 at 3:58pm

John Smith wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:56pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

It is another nail in the coffin of freedom of speech at the hands of Islam.

and yet despite many requests, you've been unable or unwilling to substantiate that. Cheesy

FD has something far better than substantiation John - he has common sense. And by common sense, we mean inane rhetorical questions.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #144 - Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 8:09am

Here it is again for you Gandalf. It is not my fault if you cannot figure out what you want to ask.

freediver wrote on Nov 27^th, 2016 at 8:34pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 5:24pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 24^th, 2016 at 12:31pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Nov 22^nd, 2016 at 1:36pm:

freediver wrote on Nov 21^st, 2016 at 7:39pm:

Behaviour is what people do. Not what they want to do or what motivates them

Your take-home message is that Ahok was cowered by the protests into stopping talking about Islam - right?

My take-home message is that this is a baseless assumption.

Shall we go from here and desist with the childish semantic games?

Here's a tip, if you want to know what my message is, try quoting what I say.

Islam is the greatest modern threat to freedom and democracy. These protests are a good example of that. Islam is relatively young in Indonesia, and this is Islam flexing it muscles to a dangerous new level. No matter how much you try to squirm and dodge the issue and define it out of existence, these protests will further erode freedom of speech in Indonesia and further entrench the hold that Islam is gaining over society. Islam undermines every society it comes to dominate.

Interesting you avoided the question and are now deferring to grandiose generalities. Lets try again - are you contending that Ahok has been cowered into stopping talking about Islam? Are you having second thoughts now? Why did you avoid it FD? Is it finally dawning on you that its completely baseless?

My bad. To answer your question, no you are wrong, yet again. My "take-home message" is what I say it is, not what you say it is, and you cannot substitute your own version just because you find my actual words inconvenient. You will find no shortage of specific and general comments about this issue littered throughout this thread Gandalf. Don't blame me if I give you generalisations when you ask for a "take-home message". Blame your own mangled english.

freediver wrote on Nov 28^th, 2016 at 8:37pm:

Quote:

Forgive me FD, but your "actual words" aren't answering my question.

Yes they are. Perhaps you should read your question again. If you ask stupid questions Gandalf, don't complain about not getting the answers you want.

BTW, am I correct that you are now asking me whether I believe my own "take-home message"?

BTW, do you still expect me to provide proof that Ahok is not saying certain things?

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« Last Edit: Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 8:16am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #145 - Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 4:07pm Well done FD. You once again quoted yourself saying how stupid it was for me to ask you that question - rather than actually answer the question. As only FD can. Jolly good, carry on then.
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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #146 - Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 4:11pm Just to reemphasise, when asked a simple 'yes/no' question - FD "answers" by quoting himself previously dodging the same question. Why are you so afraid to answer FD?
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48834 At my desk.	Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police Reply #147 - Dec 3^rd, 2016 at 7:53pm The answer is right there Gandalf. I even warned you it was coming.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #148 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 10:15am

And yet somehow it doesn't include a simple "yes" or "no" - even though the question is a 'yes/no' question.

Would you like to have another go - I'll even repeat it for you:

do you think Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam?

Lets see what other creative ways you can come up with to avoid answering 'yes' or 'no' and continue to maintain with a straight face "the answer is right there".

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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John Smith

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Re: Jakarta Governor questioned by police
Reply #149 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 10:19am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 10:15am:

And yet somehow it doesn't include a simple "yes" or "no" - even though the question is a 'yes/no' question.

Would you like to have another go - I'll even repeat it for you:

do you think Ahok was cowered into stopping himself talking about Islam?

Lets see what other creative ways you can come up with to avoid answering 'yes' or 'no' and continue to maintain with a straight face "the answer is right there".

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Our esteemed leader:
I hope that bitch who was running their brothels for them gets raped with a cactus.

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