Australian Politics Forum - If freedom of speech means anything, it means...

Yadda

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If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:16pm

If freedom of speech means anything, it means the freedom to say,

WHAT OTHERS MAY NOT WANT TO HEAR, BEING SAID !

PROPOSITION;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is an "insult" to them(1).

Our freedom of speech [and the liberty of the individual!!] would be effectively thwarted,

if our governments will argue that freedom of speech should be restricted/prohibited [i.e. IN LAW], because someone will claim that an [expressed] opinion is an "insult" to them [or to their beliefs].

QUESTION;
Are the elites in the West intentionally building and enabling Politically Correct dictatorships ?

Dictatorships, which will be societies of men, where a resident ISLAM, exclusively, will be a philosophy whose teachings will be free to insult, and to express hatred of all others [i.e. hatred of all those who are not moslems] [i.e. as mainstream ISLAMIC doctrine is want to do!!!],
but at the same time, be societies of men where ISLAM will be ideologically [AND IN LAW] protected from the scrutiny or criticism of all other minds ?

THAT, is an ISLAMIC state!

Quote:

The West's Politically Correct Dictatorship

by Giulio Meotti
December 6, 2016

......Under this politically correct dictatorship......freedom of speech can be restricted any time someone claims that an opinion is an "insult."

https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/9491/politically-correct-dictatorship

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #1 - Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:40pm

Yadda wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:16pm:

PROPOSITION;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is an "insult" to them(1).

Correction/clarification;

PROPOSITION;
In a society which claims to respect the [God given] right of the individual, to [enjoy] freedom and personal liberty;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is "insulting" to them(1).

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42329	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #2 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 12:14am
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Unforgiven

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #3 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 12:50am

Yadda wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:16pm:

PROPOSITION;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is an "insult" to them(1).

Correction/clarification;

PROPOSITION;
In a society which claims to respect the [God given] right of the individual, to [enjoy] freedom and personal liberty;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is "insulting" to them(1).

Except holocaust denial.

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“I’ll let you be in my dreams if I can be in yours” Bob Dylan

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Yadda

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #4 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 7:49am

Unforgiven wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 12:50am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:40pm:

Yadda wrote on Dec 6^th, 2016 at 11:16pm:

PROPOSITION;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is an "insult" to them(1).

Correction/clarification;

PROPOSITION;
In a society which claims to respect the [God given] right of the individual, to [enjoy] freedom and personal liberty;
Nobody(1) has the right to seek to restrict or prohibit [i.e. IN LAW] the expression of an opinion [by another person(2)], because they(1) claim, that another person(2) is expressing [e.g. a political] opinion that is "insulting" to them(1).

Except holocaust denial.

No.

It is only the mainstream political establishment, which agrees with such a prohibition in law being applied.
[i.e. it is the leftist mainstream political establishment, pandering to the 'touchy, feely' crowd, who want to be 'protected' from feeling offended by the 'offensive' words of others]

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #5 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:07am

If there's one thing I've learned from this debate - its that no one is inhibited by any laws from speaking their mind about Islam or muslims - no matter how offensive.

Yadda could stand in the middle of Pitt St and preach with a megaphone any or all of the diatribe he has spewed on this forum and would receive precisely zero censure from any law officer.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Belgarion Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 5459 Gender:	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #6 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.
Back to top	"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Voltaire.....(possibly) IP Logged

Yadda

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #7 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:17am

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that.

There is no human right not to be offended.

Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Thank you Belgarion.

Yes.

That is how freedom of speech should be expected to 'operate'.

[....excluding 'freedom of speech' which expresses any clear incitement to violence i.e. the 'freedom of speech' which we so, so often have seen moslems expressing in public places !!]

And freedom of speech should be reverenced, by those who have it, and by those who enjoy its expression, imo.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Yadda

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #8 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:31am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:07am:

If there's one thing I've learned from this debate - its that no one is inhibited by any laws from speaking their mind about Islam or muslims - no matter how offensive.

Yadda could stand in the middle of Pitt St and preach with a megaphone any or all of the diatribe he has spewed on this forum and would receive precisely zero censure from any law officer.

I really, do not believe that i could, freely make critical comments about ISLAM, in a public place, in Australia.

Why so ?

Main Street, Australia, is too politically correct, imo, and i believe that our police 'service' would NOT allow anyone to freely be critical of ISLAM, .....and to freely make such statements, in any central public space, within an Australian city.

And i believe that the 'lawful' justification would be;

'Making such statements in a public area would endanger public safety'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #9 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 11:57am

Yadda wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:31am:

Main Street, Australia, is too politically correct, imo, and i believe that our police 'service' would NOT allow anyone to freely be critical of ISLAM, .....and to freely make such statements, in any central public space, within an Australian city.

You are perfectly free to be critical of Islam Yadda, as shock jocks, right wing politicians and neo-nazis demonstrate on a daily basis. What you are not free to do is to intimidate or incite violence. Unfortunately for you the line has been blurred because like minded people have so often coupled verbal assaults with physical assaults. Thus intimidatory verbal assaults on women wearing hijabs by men shouldn't be tolerated if the victim reasonably feels she is in danger of physical assault - as she so often is (ripping of hijab, spitting). But no muslim should (and I don't believe can), be able to gag anyone merely for being "offensive" - without being intimidatory or incitatory. The only intellectual debate Australians (and much of the west) are specifically banned from is advocating holocaust denial.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Brian Ross Gold Member Offline Representative of me Posts: 42329	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #10 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am: I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged. Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion?
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Yadda

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #11 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:00pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 11:57am:

.......The only intellectual debate Australians (and much of the west) are specifically banned from is advocating holocaust denial.

Which i acknowledge [that it is so].

And i believe that prosecuting such people is wrong, and that it is contrary to the principle of allowing the expression of 'other/differing views'.

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Belgarion

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #12 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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Belgarion

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #13 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 11:57am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:31am:

Main Street, Australia, is too politically correct, imo, and i believe that our police 'service' would NOT allow anyone to freely be critical of ISLAM, .....and to freely make such statements, in any central public space, within an Australian city.

You are perfectly free to be critical of Islam Yadda, as shock jocks, right wing politicians and neo-nazis demonstrate on a daily basis. What you are not free to do is to intimidate or incite violence. Unfortunately for you the line has been blurred because like minded people have so often coupled verbal assaults with physical assaults. Thus intimidatory verbal assaults on women wearing hijabs by men shouldn't be tolerated if the victim reasonably feels she is in danger of physical assault - as she so often is (ripping of hijab, spitting). But no muslim should (and I don't believe can), be able to gag anyone merely for being "offensive" - without being intimidatory or incitatory. The only intellectual debate Australians (and much of the west) are specifically banned from is advocating holocaust denial.

Holocaust denial is not a crime in Australia*, nor should it be anywhere else. Roll Eyes

*However the 18C advocates would no doubt see it made so.

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #14 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:58pm

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

Holocaust denial is not a crime in Australia*,

Our first law officer disagrees with you:

Quote:

Asked whether the Toben case might have ended differently under the proposed amendments, Senator Brandis said: “It all depends on the particular facts but, might I remind you, that racial vilification would always capture the concept of Holocaust denial.

“For those who are concerned about Holocaust denial, I can’t see how Holocaust denial fails to be racial vilification,” the Attorney-General told ABC Radio.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/george-brandis-rejects-co...

By "racial vilification", Brandis is undoubtedly referring to the Racial DIscrimination Act 1975 - which makes racial vilification hate speech a criminal act.

Linking holocaust denial to racial vilification clearly does imply that holocaust denial is a crime.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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