Australian Politics Forum - If freedom of speech means anything, it means...

Brian Ross

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #15 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #16 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:13pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

Libel law focuses on whether published statements are true, and in the public interest.

When the former NSW police minister sued Channel 7 for showing footage of him entering a gay sauna, the case revolved around whether this was in the public interest.

Given the truth was established by the footage, Channel 7's defense was that the minister used a government car to get there - hence it was of interest to taxpayers.

This was successful. This was a test case in the Australian media releasing private information about politicians' lives for no other reason than cheap tittle. This happens in the London tabloids all the time. Sex scandals sell their fish and chips. The Australian media, however, has always been a bit more discrete.

Talkback radio spent the next few weeks bleating about a minister using his government car to stop off at a sauna on the way home from work. SHAME LABOR SHAME.

The thrill of the catch, of course, was the minister's latent hommersexuality and his poor, long-suffering wife. A police minister, no less. How could he ever be respected by his boys in blue again?

I don't know anything about criminal libel, Brian. Does it even exist?

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Raven Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 2981 Around	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #17 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:15pm Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence, it just means you can't be stopped from saying it. Say what you want but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say. Islam is not a big fan of free speech, neither are many religions. This makes them dangerous.
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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #18 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:23pm

Raven wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence, it just means you can't be stopped from saying it.

Say what you want but be prepared to be held accountable for what you say.

Islam is not a big fan of free speech, neither are many religions. This makes them dangerous.

Neither are many religions.

Quote:

Blasphemy laws are least common in sub-Saharan Africa (four of 48 countries), according to 2014 data. In Europe as well, blasphemy laws are not very common, being found in just seven out of 45 nations (16%).

In the Americas, 10 out of 35 countries (29%) had blasphemy laws, including the Bahamas, where the publication or sale of blasphemous material can be punished with up to two years imprisonment. The U.S. does not have any federal blasphemy laws, but as of 2014, several U.S. states – including Massachusetts and Michigan – still had anti-blasphemy laws on the books.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/07/29/which-countries-still-outlaw-apo...

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Yadda

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #19 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:27pm

Raven wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:15pm:

Freedom of speech does not mean freedom from consequence,

it just means you can't be stopped from saying it.

That is the exact same 'stance', imo, that 'full on' Jihadists living in Western nations take.

i.e.

"[At the moment] we can NOT stop you from insulting our religion/prophet/Koran.

But [given a chance] we may choose to kill you just the same, for saying it!"

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469402078/0#0

.

This below, is a fair representation of 'ISLAMIC culture', and, it is a fair representation of the expectations of those who are influenced by 'ISLAMIC culture', .....describing the innate religious, 'moslem right' [to murder], which the 'activated' moslem will choose to take to himself, 'to defend ISLAM'.

------------ >

IMAGE...

THOSE PLACARDS, AT A MOSLEM STREET PROTEST, 2006, IN LONDON READ.....

"Slay those who insult Islam"
"Behead those who insult Islam"
"Massacre those who insult Islam"
"Butcher those who mock Islam"
"Europe you will pay, demolition is on its way"
"Europe you will pay, extermination is on its way"
"Exterminate those who slander Islam"
"Europe is the cancer, Islam is the answer"
"Islam will dominate the world"
"Freedom go to hell"
"Europe take some lessons from 9/11"
"Be prepared for the real Holocaust"
"BBC = British Blasphemic Crusaders"

.

This below, is a fair representation of 'ISLAMIC culture', and, it is a fair representation of the expectations of those who are influenced by 'ISLAMIC culture', .....describing the innate religious, 'moslem right' [to murder], which the 'activated' moslem will choose to take to himself, 'to defend ISLAM'.

------------ >

IMAGE....

"Behead those who insult ISLAM"

Islamic Protest - IN AUSTRALIA - on the streets of Sydney from Hyde Park to George Streets, September 15, 2012.

.

Are you [reader] among those who believe that ISLAM, is not a danger to Australia and to every Australian ?

....FOR THE SLOW LEARNERS....WATCH THE WHOLE OF THIS SHORT YT VIDEO

----------- >

Quote:

"You're never too young to be a soldier of Kalifah."

Watch a group of moslem children, being coached by moslem adults, to hate Australia, and Australians,
......HERE, WITHIN AUSTRALIA. !!!!

------------- >

Muslims brainwash children in Australia

-------- > goto 43 sec
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krk5piUzp1E

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« Last Edit: Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:34pm by Yadda »

"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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Brian Ross

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #20 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:33pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

Libel law focuses on whether published statements are true, and in the public interest.

When the former NSW police minister sued Channel 7 for showing footage of him entering a gay sauna, the case revolved around whether this was in the public interest.

Given the truth was established by the footage, Channel 7's defense was that the minister used a government car to get there - hence it was of interest to taxpayers.

This was successful. This was a test case in the Australian media releasing private information about politicians' lives for no other reason than cheap tittle. This happens in the London tabloids all the time. Sex scandals sell their fish and chips. The Australian media, however, has always been a bit more discrete.

Talkback radio spent the next few weeks bleating about a minister using his government car to stop off at a sauna on the way home from work. SHAME LABOR SHAME.

The thrill of the catch, of course, was the minister's latent hommersexuality and his poor, long-suffering wife. A police minister, no less. How could he ever be respected by his boys in blue again?

I don't know anything about criminal libel, Brian. Does it even exist?

More commonly known as criminal defamation...

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #21 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:46pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:33pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 5:13pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

Libel law focuses on whether published statements are true, and in the public interest.

When the former NSW police minister sued Channel 7 for showing footage of him entering a gay sauna, the case revolved around whether this was in the public interest.

Given the truth was established by the footage, Channel 7's defense was that the minister used a government car to get there - hence it was of interest to taxpayers.

This was successful. This was a test case in the Australian media releasing private information about politicians' lives for no other reason than cheap tittle. This happens in the London tabloids all the time. Sex scandals sell their fish and chips. The Australian media, however, has always been a bit more discrete.

Talkback radio spent the next few weeks bleating about a minister using his government car to stop off at a sauna on the way home from work. SHAME LABOR SHAME.

The thrill of the catch, of course, was the minister's latent hommersexuality and his poor, long-suffering wife. A police minister, no less. How could he ever be respected by his boys in blue again?

I don't know anything about criminal libel, Brian. Does it even exist?

More commonly known as criminal defamation...

Are there any famous cases?

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Belgarion

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #22 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:17pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:58pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

Holocaust denial is not a crime in Australia*,

Our first law officer disagrees with you:

Quote:

Asked whether the Toben case might have ended differently under the proposed amendments, Senator Brandis said: “It all depends on the particular facts but, might I remind you, that racial vilification would always capture the concept of Holocaust denial.

“For those who are concerned about Holocaust denial, I can’t see how Holocaust denial fails to be racial vilification,” the Attorney-General told ABC Radio.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/george-brandis-rejects-co...

By "racial vilification", Brandis is undoubtedly referring to the Racial DIscrimination Act 1975 - which makes racial vilification hate speech a criminal act.

Linking holocaust denial to racial vilification clearly does imply that holocaust denial is a crime.

The first law officer is wrong. There is no such crime as holocaust denial in Australia. Roll Eyes

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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Belgarion

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #23 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:23pm

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

The truth is a legitimate defence in such cases, as is the concept of honest opinion. Making a statement known to be untrue, or recklessly making a statement without checking its truthfulness is what the libel laws jump on. Roll Eyes

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96491	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #24 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:41pm Yes, but what about the ridiculous PC brigade, Belgarion? They stop us telling the truth about the inferior tinted races.
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Brian Ross

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #25 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:41pm

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:23pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

The truth is a legitimate defence in such cases, as is the concept of honest opinion. Making a statement known to be untrue, or recklessly making a statement without checking its truthfulness is what the libel laws jump on. Roll Eyes

The "truth" is immaterial in such cases, Belgarion. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #26 - Dec 7^th, 2016 at 10:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 11:57am:

Yadda wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:31am:

Main Street, Australia, is too politically correct, imo, and i believe that our police 'service' would NOT allow anyone to freely be critical of ISLAM, .....and to freely make such statements, in any central public space, within an Australian city.

You are perfectly free to be critical of Islam Yadda, as shock jocks, right wing politicians and neo-nazis demonstrate on a daily basis. What you are not free to do is to intimidate or incite violence. Unfortunately for you the line has been blurred because like minded people have so often coupled verbal assaults with physical assaults. Thus intimidatory verbal assaults on women wearing hijabs by men shouldn't be tolerated if the victim reasonably feels she is in danger of physical assault - as she so often is (ripping of hijab, spitting). But no muslim should (and I don't believe can), be able to gag anyone merely for being "offensive" - without being intimidatory or incitatory. The only intellectual debate Australians (and much of the west) are specifically banned from is advocating holocaust denial.

What if it offends or insults someone?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #27 - Dec 8^th, 2016 at 8:12am

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:58pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

Holocaust denial is not a crime in Australia*,

Our first law officer disagrees with you:

Quote:

Asked whether the Toben case might have ended differently under the proposed amendments, Senator Brandis said: “It all depends on the particular facts but, might I remind you, that racial vilification would always capture the concept of Holocaust denial.

“For those who are concerned about Holocaust denial, I can’t see how Holocaust denial fails to be racial vilification,” the Attorney-General told ABC Radio.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/george-brandis-rejects-co...

By "racial vilification", Brandis is undoubtedly referring to the Racial DIscrimination Act 1975 - which makes racial vilification hate speech a criminal act.

Linking holocaust denial to racial vilification clearly does imply that holocaust denial is a crime.

The first law officer is wrong. There is no such crime as holocaust denial in Australia. Roll Eyes

Ah, now you're being tricky. See no one ever said there was such a crime as holocaust denial. But you are still wrong in your original assertion that holocaust denial is not a crime. As Brandis said, holocaust denial would be considered a form of racial vilification - under the Racial Discrimination Act - and therefore a crime.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Belgarion

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #28 - Dec 8^th, 2016 at 8:25am

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 8^th, 2016 at 8:12am:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:17pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:58pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:22pm:

Holocaust denial is not a crime in Australia*,

Our first law officer disagrees with you:

Quote:

Asked whether the Toben case might have ended differently under the proposed amendments, Senator Brandis said: “It all depends on the particular facts but, might I remind you, that racial vilification would always capture the concept of Holocaust denial.

“For those who are concerned about Holocaust denial, I can’t see how Holocaust denial fails to be racial vilification,” the Attorney-General told ABC Radio.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/legal-affairs/george-brandis-rejects-co...

By "racial vilification", Brandis is undoubtedly referring to the Racial DIscrimination Act 1975 - which makes racial vilification hate speech a criminal act.

Linking holocaust denial to racial vilification clearly does imply that holocaust denial is a crime.

The first law officer is wrong. There is no such crime as holocaust denial in Australia. Roll Eyes

Ah, now you're being tricky. See no one ever said there was such a crime as holocaust denial. But you are still wrong in your original assertion that holocaust denial is not a crime. As Brandis said, holocaust denial would be considered a form of racial vilification - under the Racial Discrimination Act - and therefore a crime.

That is simply Brandis' opinion, not the law... Roll Eyes

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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Belgarion

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #29 - Dec 8^th, 2016 at 8:38am

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:41pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 8:23pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 4:57pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 3:21pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 2:14pm:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 7^th, 2016 at 9:10am:

I agree with the OP. Freedom of speech means exactly that. There is no human right not to be offended. Any opinion can be expressed and any opinion can be challenged.

Except according to the laws of Libel, Slander and criminality, right, Belgarion? Roll Eyes

Yes Brian, but you know these laws relate to actual damage to an individuals reputation, they are not intended to be used to silence opinion. Roll Eyes

Ah, but if you knew anything about Criminal Libel cases, the truth is immaterial to the outcome, Belgarion. The damage to their reputation is what matters, no matter if it is the truth or not. Roll Eyes

The truth is a legitimate defence in such cases, as is the concept of honest opinion. Making a statement known to be untrue, or recklessly making a statement without checking its truthfulness is what the libel laws jump on. Roll Eyes

The "truth" is immaterial in such cases, Belgarion. Roll Eyes

From the Defamation Act 2005 Brian.....

"The publication of any false imputation concerning a person, or a member of his family, whether living or dead, by which (a) the reputation of that person is likely to be injured or (b) he is likely to be injured in his profession or trade or (c) other persons are likely to be induced to shun, avoid, ridicule or despise him."..........

"25 Defence of justification
It is a defence to the publication of defamatory matter if the defendant proves that the defamatory imputations carried by the matter of which the plaintiff complains are substantially true."

Not even 100%, true, just substantially true.....

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"I may not agree with what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it."

Voltaire.....(possibly)

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