Australian Politics Forum - If freedom of speech means anything, it means...

Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #45 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 1:20pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 12:49pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 8:23am:

Belgarion wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 7:34am:

Do the people who would make holocaust denial a crime not see that they are playing directly into the deniers hands? Instead of having these claims out in the open where they can be criticised, the deniers can then say 'The government is trying to shut me up, therefore I must be onto something!' and then someone will begin to listen...

This applies to every attempt to censor free speech. Far better to have everything out in the open where it can be examined than driven underground to attract a credulous audience.

I used to wonder this too Belgarion, but lets face it - holocaust denial hasn't become any more credible in society because of these gags. The Frederic Toben's and David Irvings haven't become martyrs of free speech despite both being gaoled for what they have said and written. And lets not be naive and ignore the incredibly effective propaganda machine behind the holocaust industry. The fact that Brandis can boldly come out and say straight up that holocaust denial is automatically equivalent to racial vilification - without even raising eyebrows says it all really. We've all bought into it, we've become conditioned to think that gagging holocaust denial is an acceptable course of action - despite otherwise passionately defending free speech. And its even worse in Europe - understandably so since thats where it all happened. I never could get over the sheer brazen absurdity of French politicians walking hand in hand down the street in solidarity with Charlie Hebdo and the attack on their freedom - while at the very same time a French anti-semite was getting his door kicked down by police over some nasty words he said about jews on facebook. I kid you not, this really happened, look it up.

We wouldn't know who Toben was if not for the fact he was jailed for denying the holocaust. It took them about ten years to do it, and he milked it for free publicity the whole way. It doesn't resonate with most Australians because of the message itself (and we are not compelled by our religion to think up reasons to continue slaughtering Jews, just like Muhammed did). 18c has helped Toben overcome the difficulties of getting holocaust denial back into the public debate.

I also think the Islamic victimhood industry is just as much to blame for the current state of affairs. A classic example of this is Gandalf's insistence that all Islamophobia is based on racism.

G has said no such thing, FD. He insists that legitimate criticism of Islam is fair and proper.

I, on the other hand, insist that all Islamophobia is racism. Islamophobia is based on the term, xenophobia. It most certainly is based on racism.

A case in point: your insistence that Islam is the result of Arab inbreeding. You also assert that Arab interbreeding with negroid sub-races is "a plausible theory". Not only this, you claim that Islam is an attack on the "freedoms of white people everywhere".

Islamophobia is clearly based on racism, FD. And no one has shown this more than your good self.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #46 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 3:23pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 12:49pm:

We wouldn't know who Toben was if not for the fact he was jailed for denying the holocaust. It took them about ten years to do it, and he milked it for free publicity the whole way. It doesn't resonate with most Australians because of the message itself (and we are not compelled by our religion to think up reasons to continue slaughtering Jews, just like Muhammed did). 18c has helped Toben overcome the difficulties of getting holocaust denial back into the public debate.

And yet holocaust denial is not "back in the public debate". Its just as frowned upon now as it was before Toben opened his bigoted mouth - probably more so. The fact that Toben has been heard of in some circles doesn't change this in any way shape or form.

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 12:49pm:

I also think the Islamic victimhood industry is just as much to blame for the current state of affairs. A classic example of this is Gandalf's insistence that all Islamophobia is based on racism.

Islamophobia is by its definition an irrational fear or hate of Islam. I can't think of any other reason to have such fear or hate other than racism. If you prefer to talk about rational reasons to fear Islam, then by all means. But that is not Islamophobia.

Can you suggest any other irrational reasons to fear/hate Islam besides racism FD?

I suspect that what you really mean is that there is no such thing as an "irrational" fear of Islam - yes?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #47 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 3:30pm

Karnal wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 1:20pm:

A case in point: your insistence that Islam is the result of Arab inbreeding. You also assert that Arab interbreeding with negroid sub-races is "a plausible theory". Not only this, you claim that Islam is an attack on the "freedoms of white people everywhere".

FD can't work out why moses' statement that the entire male population of muslims are mentally retarded psychopaths who are so filthy they squat to pee - could ever be racism. But he does see it as sexism.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #48 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 4:01pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 3:30pm:

Karnal wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 1:20pm:

A case in point: your insistence that Islam is the result of Arab inbreeding. You also assert that Arab interbreeding with negroid sub-races is "a plausible theory". Not only this, you claim that Islam is an attack on the "freedoms of white people everywhere".

FD can't work out why moses' statement that the entire male population of muslims are mentally retarded psychopaths who are so filthy they squat to pee - could ever be racism. But he does see it as sexism.

Ah yes. Then there's FD's refusal to comment on Trump for the obvious reason that he supports Trump's Islamophobia, but doesn't want to be seen as wacist.

I could be wrong, of course, but FD's too busy discussing sustainable fishing and carbon taxes, so I guess we'll never know.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #49 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 4:48pm Karnal wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 4:01pm: FD's too busy discussing sustainable fishing and carbon taxes
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freediver

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #50 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 7:16pm

Quote:

G has said no such thing, FD.

That is exactly what he said

Quote:

Islamophobia is based on the term, xenophobia. It most certainly is based on racism.

University of bologne, isn't it?

Quote:

And yet holocaust denial is not "back in the public debate".

Are we not members of the public? What do you think we are doing?

Quote:

Its just as frowned upon now as it was before Toben opened his bigoted mouth - probably more so.

And now we are actually doing the frowning, whereas before it was more of a theoretical frown.

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The fact that Toben has been heard of in some circles doesn't change this in any way shape or form.

it means he has been heard of, which is better than what he had before he was dragged through the courts. He is exactly what you insist he isn't - martyr for freedom of speech.

Quote:

Islamophobia is by its definition an irrational fear or hate of Islam.

ie, not a race

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I can't think of any other reason to have such fear or hate other than racism.

Ah, so irrational fears now require a reason for having them? Thanks for explaining Gandalf.

Quote:

FD can't work out why moses' statement that the entire male population of muslims are mentally retarded psychopaths who are so filthy they squat to pee - could ever be racism.

It is sexism, not racism. Islam is not a race. This is exaclty the sort of muddle headed thinking that lead us down the 18c path. Everything bad is racism, so lets ban everything we disagree with....

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #51 - Dec 9^th, 2016 at 7:29pm

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 7:16pm:

Quote:

G has said no such thing, FD.

That is exactly what he said

Quote:

Islamophobia is based on the term, xenophobia. It most certainly is based on racism.

University of bologne, isn't it?

Quote:

And yet holocaust denial is not "back in the public debate".

Are we not members of the public? What do you think we are doing?

Quote:

Its just as frowned upon now as it was before Toben opened his bigoted mouth - probably more so.

And now we are actually doing the frowning, whereas before it was more of a theoretical frown.

Quote:

The fact that Toben has been heard of in some circles doesn't change this in any way shape or form.

it means he has been heard of, which is better than what he had before he was dragged through the courts. He is exactly what you insist he isn't - martyr for freedom of speech.

Quote:

Islamophobia is by its definition an irrational fear or hate of Islam.

ie, not a race

Quote:

I can't think of any other reason to have such fear or hate other than racism.

Ah, so irrational fears now require a reason for having them? Thanks for explaining Gandalf.

Quote:

FD can't work out why moses' statement that the entire male population of muslims are mentally retarded psychopaths who are so filthy they squat to pee - could ever be racism.

It is sexism, not racism. Islam is not a race. This is exaclty the sort of muddle headed thinking that lead us down the 18c path. Everything bad is racism, so lets ban everything we disagree with....

That's right. Interbreeding with the inferior races is sexism too.

But I'm curious. Why don't you like to mention the president-erect of the Freeeedom-loving US of A? Are you superstitious?

Have no fear, FD. I've said his name a few times and I'm okay - touch wood.

Trump hates Negroids, Mexicans, Muselmen - you name it.

None of it's racist, of course. It's just about standing up for the Freeedom of decent white people everywhere, no?

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« Last Edit: Dec 9^th, 2016 at 7:36pm by Karnal »

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #52 - Dec 10^th, 2016 at 6:52am

freediver wrote on Dec 9^th, 2016 at 7:16pm:

It is sexism, not racism. Islam is not a race. This is exaclty the sort of muddle headed thinking that lead us down the 18c path.

Right. So you don't think that moses' depiction of the entire male muslim population as an inferior genetic sub-class "racialises" muslims? Isn't your contention that Islamophobia can never be racism based solely on how you perceive race and racism - and not how other people like moses perceive them? How about the idea that muslims today have a lower IQ because of their history of interbreeding with genetically inferior negroid races - something you described as a "plausible theory"?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #53 - Dec 11^th, 2016 at 8:44am

Quote:

Right. So you don't think that moses' depiction of the entire male muslim population as an inferior genetic sub-class "racialises" muslims?

I've seen you use this term before Gandalf - "racialising" criticism of Islam. It is still not a race.

Quote:

How about the idea that muslims today have a lower IQ because of their history of interbreeding with genetically inferior negroid races - something you described as a "plausible theory"?

Do you think inbreeding among middle eastern Muslims is a serious issue that affects their IQ? I believe you tried to deny the link between IQ and inbreeding in the past. Is it racist to talk about it? Should we put Moses in jail?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #54 - Dec 11^th, 2016 at 11:02am

freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 8:44am:

Quote:

Right. So you don't think that moses' depiction of the entire male muslim population as an inferior genetic sub-class "racialises" muslims?

I've seen you use this term before Gandalf - "racialising" criticism of Islam. It is still not a race.

Quote:

How about the idea that muslims today have a lower IQ because of their history of interbreeding with genetically inferior negroid races - something you described as a "plausible theory"?

Do you think inbreeding among middle eastern Muslims is a serious issue that affects their IQ? I believe you tried to deny the link between IQ and inbreeding in the past. Is it racist to talk about it? Should we put Moses in jail?

You go first, FD.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #55 - Dec 11^th, 2016 at 6:06pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 8:44am:

I've seen you use this term before Gandalf - "racialising" criticism of Islam. It is still not a race.

Racists racialise muslims, and are prejudiced against them on racist grounds. And there's no clearer example of this than Moses's diatribe about 100% of muslims belonging to an inferior genetic sub-class of humans. If you want to cover your eyes and your ears and pretend this isn't a well established fact, then there's not much I can say to convince you. Nor is there much point directing you to the literature that demonstrates this - as I have done previously. And by the way the fact that Islam is not a race does not change this one iota.

freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 8:44am:

Do you think inbreeding among middle eastern Muslims is a serious issue that affects their IQ?

Yes. But I'll remind you yet again that this is not what you considered a "plausible theory". That was in reference to a well known racist's argument that the low IQ of muslims was more to do with them coming into contact with the "inferior" genes of the negroids of Africa. In fact he dismissed the inbreeding theory.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #56 - Dec 11^th, 2016 at 7:42pm

Quote:

Racists racialise muslims, and are prejudiced against them on racist grounds. And there's no clearer example of this than Moses's diatribe about 100% of muslims belonging to an inferior genetic sub-class of humans.

If he specifically refers to 100% of them, he cannot be referring to a race, can he?

Quote:

Yes. But I'll remind you yet again that this is not what you considered a "plausible theory".

Thanks Gandalf. It's reassuring to go back over familiar territory of you correcting me on my own opinion.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means... Reply #57 - Dec 12^th, 2016 at 6:41am freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 7:42pm: If he specifically refers to 100% of them, he cannot be referring to a race, can he? 100% of muslims are an inferior genetic sub-species - aka "race" gettit? Racists always speak in sweeping absolutes, its probably their most defining characteristic.
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Karnal

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #58 - Dec 12^th, 2016 at 4:27pm

freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 7:42pm:

Quote:

Racists racialise muslims, and are prejudiced against them on racist grounds. And there's no clearer example of this than Moses's diatribe about 100% of muslims belonging to an inferior genetic sub-class of humans.

If he specifically refers to 100% of them, he cannot be referring to a race, can he?

Quote:

Yes. But I'll remind you yet again that this is not what you considered a "plausible theory".

Thanks Gandalf. It's reassuring to go back over familiar territory of you correcting me on my own opinion.

A plausible theory.

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freediver

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Re: If freedom of speech means anything, it means...
Reply #59 - Dec 12^th, 2016 at 6:51pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 12^th, 2016 at 6:41am:

freediver wrote on Dec 11^th, 2016 at 7:42pm:

If he specifically refers to 100% of them, he cannot be referring to a race, can he?

100% of muslims are an inferior genetic sub-species - aka "race" gettit?

Racists always speak in sweeping absolutes, its probably their most defining characteristic.

Can you quote him referring to a sub-species Gandalf? Or are you just changing what he said until you get the outcome you want?

Sounds to me like you are the one using sweeping absolutes. Islamophobia is always based on racism, because irrational fears can be pinned down with rational deduction, right? Therefor, you are a racist. FTW.

Did you make a submission on 18c?

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« Last Edit: Dec 12^th, 2016 at 6:58pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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