Australian Politics Forum - there is no climate change debate.

lee

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #30 - Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:49pm

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:18pm:

Agreed

[quote author=deepideas link=1481690951/29#29 date=1482153488]He then states that science has no CREDIBLE explanation for this warming, other than it being caused by CO2(Causative).

So they can't think of a reason, but it can't be natural variation. Cheesy

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:18pm:

Because it is the only thing which could be causing climate change,

Logical fallacy.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:18pm:

Its about as solid as science gets really.

pure supposition. Oh, very good.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:18pm:

Since your position has been either or;
(A) the climate is not changing
(B) The changing climate is not cuased by CO2/ The CO2 increase is not anthropogenic.

Nope.The climate has always changed.

CO2 may be responsible for a small portion./ CO2 increase is partially anthropogenic. Have you heard of the greening of the planet? Natural CO2 increase.

The proof of AGW theory lies with the proponents, and you haven't provoded proof, merely conjecture upon conjecture.

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Pho Huc

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #31 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am

lee wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

So they can't think of a reason, but it can't be natural variation.

No they can think of reason. CO2 levels. what I said was they couldn't think of any OTHER reason that was consistent with the observed data.

Kind of like how scientists can't guarantee that gravity will be working tomorrow. It always has, and it fits with the current observations but you never really know.
That's what science is. there is always uncertainty.

lee wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 11:49pm:

CO2 may be responsible for a small portion./ CO2 increase is partially anthropogenic. Have you heard of the greening of the planet? Natural CO2 increase.

The proof of AGW theory lies with the proponents, and you haven't provoded proof, merely conjecture upon conjecture.

evidence(backed by hard data) has been provided that the majority of CO2 recently added to the atmosphere is anthropogenic, and that there is no other coherent explanation for the recently climatic change other than it being directly caused by CO2 levels. If you want ill provide even more evidence and publish links to data. Again ill request you provide any peer reviewed material supporting your position. I dont expect anything, but you don't ask you dont get.

Please, i would love to be able to support your opinion but you have to give me something that doesnt make me giggle!

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Pho Huc Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 985 Victoria Gender:	Re: there is no climate change debate. Reply #32 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:29am Just in case some actual hard evidence could shake your faith, this is the paper on isotope concentrations referred to previously. You know "evidence" That thing you don't have. http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/modern_isotopes.html
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Emma

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #33 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:56am

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 10:50pm:

lee wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 9:54pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 19^th, 2016 at 9:38pm:

I feel that would be helping you move the topic away from the large amount of science supporting my opinion and the lack of science supporting your opinion.

Please cite the evidence that it is AGW, not natural variation.

Of course the "Climate Science" has said that the warming is too much for natural variability. If that is so, the "hiatus" or "pause" cannot be attributed to natural variability, because apparently CO2 is the driver of climate change.

What evidence would you like? I presume papers based on empirical evidence? How many? in which languages? from when-the 1960's? 70's? 80's, 90's-the last 15 years? yesterday;)?

Your welcome to pick any of those parameters and ill post as many as you want.

Its the wonderful thing about science. Its not about being right first time. Its about putting forward a hypothesis based on the available evidence, and attempting to prove it. The peer review process makes it hard for flawed ideas to remain unchallenged as there is considerable prestige in debunking a established scientific belief.
In spite of this innate self correcting nature there is a more consensus supporting AGW in the relevant scientific communities than ever before.

If anyone can actually demonstrate that the current data doesn't indicate AGW that person is set for life, from a financial and status view point.
You could argue that only a small number of people are actively looking for proof that climate change is not anthropogenic, but that would be flawed since science is not about looking for proof of a preexisting opinion, rather about collecting data and finding a coherent consistent explanation(which is how all the scientists came to conclusion that its anthropogenic)

+
Well put Phuc No..
oh sorry

Pho Huc.. well put.

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: there is no climate change debate. Reply #34 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:59am Yes indeed. Sadly Lee isn't about reasonable debate. I suppose it may be fun to engage him.. Phuc Nos's why .. but you'll find the same as do we all... Lee is NOT about reason. One suspects he is an agent provocateur. There are a fair few here on OzPol.
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Pho Huc

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #35 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 1:13am

Cheers Emma,

I aware that its futile trying to reason with Lee, but i'm an argumentative insomniac so I might as well aim it somewhere slightly productive.

I can deal with someone who just states they don't believe in climate change without justification, provided they don't try and persuade other people(which they don't in my experience).

People who promulgate misinformation are dangerous though, because theoretically they are the people create the first kind of skeptic.
I guess its either a case of the thrill you get from being the outsider(who always wants more people join so they can become leaders of a majority), an ulterior motive or just being an anus.

I don't know, people are unpredictable.
In the end it probably doesn't matter. I'm yet to see a single poster on this forum change their position on anything significant. Its where we come to argue, not learn. Though I have learned a lot researching my arguments.
I expect that most of the poster here have learned a lot about their opponents positions as we research the topics and look for holes in there statements.

Hopefully we all end up with a more well-rounded knowledge base as a result.

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« Last Edit: Dec 20^th, 2016 at 1:18am by Pho Huc »

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Emma Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 9853 OZ Gender:	Re: there is no climate change debate. Reply #36 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 5:19am cheers to you too I agree with the reasons you engage... it is an opportunity to express your views. That is why I participate in the OzPol forum. If your posts draw responses that is always a good thing.
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Jovial Monk Gold Member Offline Dogs not cats! Posts: 47794 Gender:	Re: there is no climate change debate. Reply #37 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 8:11am Agree with the above but science is about DISproving theories.
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lee

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #38 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 10:46am

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am:

No they can think of reason. CO2 levels.

But they can't think of any other reason, so by their estimation CO2 MUST be the culprit.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am:

evidence(backed by hard data) has been provided that the majority of CO2 recently added to the atmosphere is anthropogenic

I haven't argued otherwise.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am:

and that there is no other coherent explanation for the recently climatic change other than it being directly caused by CO2 levels. I

That is a leap of faith, not evidence.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:29am:

Just in case some actual hard evidence could shake your faith, this is the paper on isotope concentrations referred to previously.

You know "evidence"

That thing you don't have.

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/modern_isotopes.html

Yep. We got that. You are repeating yourself.

Now link it to AGW, or CAGW if you really think it a problem.

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lee Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17962 Gender:	Re: there is no climate change debate. Reply #39 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 10:48am Jovial Monk wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 8:11am: Agree with the above but science is about DISproving theories. Incorrect. The idea is to disprove the null hypothesis. That is natural variation.
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Pho Huc

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #40 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 2:16pm

lee wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 10:46am:

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am:

No they can think of reason. CO2 levels.

But they can't think of any other reason, so by their estimation CO2 MUST be the culprit.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am:

evidence(backed by hard data) has been provided that the majority of CO2 recently added to the atmosphere is anthropogenic

I haven't argued otherwise.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:24am:

and that there is no other coherent explanation for the recently climatic change other than it being directly caused by CO2 levels. I

That is a leap of faith, not evidence.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 12:29am:

Just in case some actual hard evidence could shake your faith, this is the paper on isotope concentrations referred to previously.

You know "evidence"

That thing you don't have.

http://cdiac.ornl.gov/trends/co2/modern_isotopes.html

Yep. We got that. You are repeating yourself.

Now link it to AGW, or CAGW if you really think it a problem.

No. I have explained it, provided empirical proof and scientific papers supporting my position.

You are unable to admit that you have nothing to stand on, so your trying to make this about my evidence.

If you don't have anything to support your position go and do some research and build up a credible position.

You could always just shut and stop embarrassing yourself, but i'm happy to stay here and keep pointing out your ignorance and stupidity.

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lee

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #41 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 3:13pm

Just looked at your much vaunted references on the other thread.

All of them rely on models. Models that have a number of "forcings" or parameters.

The output of these models is not empirical data. They are a function of whatever is introduced by these parameters. Change one parameter and the output changes.

'
With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.'

Attributed to von Neumann by Enrico Fermi, as quoted by Freeman Dyson in "A meeting with Enrico Fermi" in Nature 427 (22 January 2004) p. 297

But you believe implicitly, so there is no changing your mind. The AGW religion.

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Pho Huc

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #42 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 4:51pm

lee wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 3:13pm:

Just looked at your much vaunted references on the other thread.

I just realized that I have no argument against the empirically based scientific paper you posted in this thread

All of them rely on models. Models that have a number of "forcings" or parameters.

The output of these models is not empirical data. They are a function of whatever is introduced by these parameters. Change one parameter and the output changes.

Rather than provide any evidence supporting my opinions I want to argue about the quality of your evidence(because I don't have any evidence)

'
With four parameters I can fit an elephant, and with five I can make him wiggle his trunk.'

Attributed to von Neumann by Enrico Fermi, as quoted by Freeman Dyson in "A meeting with Enrico Fermi" in Nature 427 (22 January 2004) p. 297

But you believe implicitly, so there is no changing your mind. The AGW religion.

Now i'm going to say something irrelevant and insulting in the hope of goading my opponent into defending their position, instead of attacking my weak position.

If you were half as good as logic as you are at obfuscation you would have cracked dark matter by now.

You have no evidence to support your position that climate change is caused by anything other than mans CO2 emissions.

Again, if you have ANY credible research supporting your opinion please post it.

Or shut up.

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lee

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #43 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 7:33pm

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

ather than provide any evidence supporting my opinions I want to argue about the quality of your evidence(because I don't have any evidence)

You don't know the climate models use "forcings" aka parameters? Then you don't know your argument.

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

You have no evidence to support your position that climate change is caused by anything other than mans CO2 emissions.

But I don't need to The alarmists have to PROVE that natural variation is not the reason for Climate change. Just saying so does not make it so. Natural variation is the null hypothesis.

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Pho Huc

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Re: there is no climate change debate.
Reply #44 - Dec 20^th, 2016 at 10:00pm

lee wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 7:33pm:

Pho Huc wrote on Dec 20^th, 2016 at 4:51pm:

You have no evidence to support your position that climate change is caused by anything other than mans CO2 emissions.

But I don't need to The alarmists have to PROVE that natural variation is not the reason for Climate change. Just saying so does not make it so. Natural variation is the null hypothesis.

OK.

So after 60 years of research by thousands of independent scientists the only plausible cause for the increasing temperatures is CO2 released by man.

Developed countries sacrifice billions of dollars in cheap energy to reduce their carbon output.

And you sit there and tell me that I have to provide evidence.

Its all your capable of.
Because you have nothing to support you.

Hell, now your back to "Natural Variation" i.e god wiggling his fingers!

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