Australian Politics Forum - What is racism?

Karnal

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #315 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 11:30am

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 7:12am:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:24am:

Frank wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 8:41pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 8:11pm:

Mr Hammer wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 7:33pm:

My belief- if you aren't a 100% jet black abbo living on the land and speaking the tongue then you aren't a abbo. If you are a one quarter percent wannabee living in a house and getting your food from Woolworths you are a 1st world consuming douche like the rest of us. Suck it up and move on.

Such a narrow-minded viewpoint there, Rhino. Considering the degree of intermarriage between Whites and Indigenous Australians... Roll Eyes

How much Indigenous blood makes you Indigenous an when do you become white?
Three white grandparents? Two? One? When do you switch from indigenous to white?

When do indigenous Aboriginals stop regarding you as one of them? How blond and blue eyed can you be to be still indigenous? One great-great-great grandmother?

I take it you'd much rather have arbitrary rules, based on your myth of "race", to determine if a person is Indigenous or not, Frank?

Rather like how Sandra Laing was judged to be "coloured" on the basis of her skin colour and hair type by the RSA Authorities? Gee, you're such a nice person, aren't you, Frank? Do you think that Jewish people should wear a nice yellow star on their clothes so you can tell their religion? Mmmmm? Roll Eyes

Our government already has those arbitrary rules to determine who is aboriginal. I believe that 1/16 or 1/32 aboriginal blood is sufficient to get extra money.

Was it a struggle to choose between the Sustainability Party and One Nation, FD?

Who did you end up voting for?

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96385	Re: What is racism? Reply #316 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 11:39am freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 7:45am: Islam is not an ethnicity Gandalf. Inbred is not an ethnicity either. Nor is squatting to pee. Oh, I know. Does this mean you're not racist, FD? We'll ask you - like you asked Aussie, Abu, and now G. Are you racist? A simple yes or no will suffice.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96385	Re: What is racism? Reply #317 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 11:46am Sorry, gang, have we moved on from Mendelian genetics? I thought recessive zyclotes were not a race too.
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Frank

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #318 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 11:55am

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 7:26am:

Frank wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 7:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 6:59pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

I do not understand you point of view and I very much doubt that you do. You lost all your arguments along these lines, I am sure.

For example, if you reside in England but do not speak English but only some other language then you are not English. Or if you speak English but with an Australian or American accent - Clive James, say, or Kevin Spacey - you are not English either.

I've had this debate with someone before. I pointed out the absurdly arbitrary (and dare I say - racist) nature of this definition. For example, a black man who immigrates to England from the West Indies can never be 'English' because of where he was born - even if he takes up citizenship and adopts the English culture with gusto. Fair enough - its a chauvinist and unreasonable argument IMO, but it at least has some logic and I can understand it. But then he went on to say that not even his children, or his grandchildren - pretty much going on forever and ever - could ever be 'English' either. Why? Because they could never claim the heritage of an 'Englishman'. Whatever that means. Same deal with those with Pakistani or Indian or Arab etc heritage. So it then becomes nothing about self identity or the culture you adopt (as you seem to claim sometimes) - but purely about what 'race' you are born into. It is a blatantly racist approach specifically designed to keep identities like 'Englishman' or "Dutchman' or "Frenchman" an exclusive club, defined not by what culture you adopt, nor even where you were born - but whose genes you carry. It is a tool that literally has no other purpose than to maintain a stigma on certain minorities - to send the message loud and clear that 'you are not one of us' and therefore 'you are inferior to us'.

You hit he nail on the head despite yourself, Gandalf. Aboriginality is defined as being accepted by the Aboriginal community as being an Aboriginal, not by any other measure.

The same idea holds for every other cultural and ethic group, including the ones who, unlike aborigines, have passports corresponding to their identity.

You are English when the English accept you as English. You are Australian when Australians accept you as one of them.

This is what you are arguing against but also affirm - this is why you lose every argument. You are mouthing PC crap and try to back it up with common sense - only you do not realise because nobody, not even you, actually gets the PC crap. You mouth it because you want to be progressive but because it is daft, you don't - can't - think along its tenets.

What hypocritical drivel.

Fact: women in hijabs and 'bearded numpties' in baggy 'pygamas', among others - ie the very people you constantly rail against as 'not one of us' - are overwhelmingly accepted in western communities. These western societies have repeatedly and consistently supported these people's right to express their own cultural identity, and they overwhelmingly consider this a good thing and not the least bit inconsistent with successful integration into western society.

Sorry Frank but you checkmate yourself with your own argument: these people are accepted into society, yet you still huff and puff at them for 'not being accepted'. So what do you think this means? It means that *YOU* are the one out of step in society, not the hijabis or bearded numpties. Of course you can jeer and sneer at these people for not fitting into *YOUR* idea of 'successful' integration - but don't pretend the rest of your beloved white society is with you on this. They are not. You are Robinson Crusoe on this one I'm afraid.

This real-world Ali G is not accepted as English by the English. He is a caricature, despite himself, of the Muslim immigrants who want to spread Islam to England,

But these women would be accepted.

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« Last Edit: Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:25pm by Frank »

Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96385	Re: What is racism? Reply #319 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:05pm Ali G is a parody of Britishness itself, Sore End. Cohen's having a laugh at British migrant "youth culture" as shown on British TV - patronisingly. At no point does Ali G ever mention his own religious beliefs. In the (awful) film, his name is revealed as Alister Graham.
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Frank

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #320 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:48pm

In the fight that took place on Sunday, January 24, 2016, Mr Tyrrell suffered minor injuries, while at least one of the fishermen was taken to hospital. No charges were laid.
The retired lieutenant-colonel claimed that the attack was racially and culturally motivated after his wife was called a white sl** and a white w***e by the men.
However criticism that he has received about the incident on Facebook persuaded him to set the record straight on the incident. He confirmed that the men were Muslim and said he would 'do it again in a heartbeat'.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4081014/Iraq-veteran-Kyle-Tyrrell-defend...

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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Frank

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #321 - Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:50pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:05pm:

Ali G is a parody of Britishness itself, Sore End. Cohen's having a laugh at British migrant "youth culture" as shown on British TV - patronisingly.

At no point does Ali G ever mention his own religious beliefs. In the (awful) film, his name is revealed as Alister Graham.

It's a parody of West Indian yuf in England.

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #322 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 2:27pm

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 9:26am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 7:26am:

Frank wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 7:12pm:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 6:59pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 7^th, 2017 at 6:29pm:

I do not understand you point of view and I very much doubt that you do. You lost all your arguments along these lines, I am sure.

For example, if you reside in England but do not speak English but only some other language then you are not English. Or if you speak English but with an Australian or American accent - Clive James, say, or Kevin Spacey - you are not English either.

I've had this debate with someone before. I pointed out the absurdly arbitrary (and dare I say - racist) nature of this definition. For example, a black man who immigrates to England from the West Indies can never be 'English' because of where he was born - even if he takes up citizenship and adopts the English culture with gusto. Fair enough - its a chauvinist and unreasonable argument IMO, but it at least has some logic and I can understand it. But then he went on to say that not even his children, or his grandchildren - pretty much going on forever and ever - could ever be 'English' either. Why? Because they could never claim the heritage of an 'Englishman'. Whatever that means. Same deal with those with Pakistani or Indian or Arab etc heritage. So it then becomes nothing about self identity or the culture you adopt (as you seem to claim sometimes) - but purely about what 'race' you are born into. It is a blatantly racist approach specifically designed to keep identities like 'Englishman' or "Dutchman' or "Frenchman" an exclusive club, defined not by what culture you adopt, nor even where you were born - but whose genes you carry. It is a tool that literally has no other purpose than to maintain a stigma on certain minorities - to send the message loud and clear that 'you are not one of us' and therefore 'you are inferior to us'.

You hit he nail on the head despite yourself, Gandalf. Aboriginality is defined as being accepted by the Aboriginal community as being an Aboriginal, not by any other measure.

The same idea holds for every other cultural and ethic group, including the ones who, unlike aborigines, have passports corresponding to their identity.

You are English when the English accept you as English. You are Australian when Australians accept you as one of them.

This is what you are arguing against but also affirm - this is why you lose every argument. You are mouthing PC crap and try to back it up with common sense - only you do not realise because nobody, not even you, actually gets the PC crap. You mouth it because you want to be progressive but because it is daft, you don't - can't - think along its tenets.

What hypocritical drivel.

Fact: women in hijabs and 'bearded numpties' in baggy 'pygamas', among others - ie the very people you constantly rail against as 'not one of us' - are overwhelmingly accepted in western communities. These western societies have repeatedly and consistently supported these people's right to express their own cultural identity, and they overwhelmingly consider this a good thing and not the least bit inconsistent with successful integration into western society.

So they DO have a separate, other cultural identity. That's what the beard and the hijab and niqab say, loud and clear; we are not like you, we are a separate, self-separating, unintegrated group.

False dichotomy. Having a non-western 'cultural identity' shouldn't necessarily be interpreted as a big "F you" to western culture. This is what closed-minded people like you assume - because you are always assuming the worst of these people. The fact is, the overwhelming majority of cultural minorities in a western multicultural society have more than proven themselves to be compatible and productive in western society. No doubt you, and I suspect Yadda will blunder back in with your obligatory anecdotes of a few ratbags who buck the trend, but it doesn't change the fact that you are wrong- demonstrably so.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #323 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:38pm

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 8:17am:

Gandalf, if someone said that all non-white people should be killed, not because they are superior, but only because it would make their fellow white people better off for inheriting the world, would you insist that is not racist?

I interpret that as stating one race is superior to another - don't you? But gee whiz I really hope you're not suggesting Aussie said anything of the kind?

Quote:

Are you saying Aussie was restricting his comments to regretting the past, not about what should be done about it?

Pretty much. I never said I thought Aussie had a particular coherent argument, and he certainly didn't handle himself particularly well in response to your barrage of verballling him. But not thinking something through particularly well doesn't make one racist.

Quote:

They are Muslim by choice. Inbred or stupid is still not a race or an ethnicity, even if they have no choice.

Still not getting through am I? 'muslim' is not the racist part, inbred therefore stupid is.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Karnal

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #324 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:50pm

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:05pm:

Ali G is a parody of Britishness itself, Sore End. Cohen's having a laugh at British migrant "youth culture" as shown on British TV - patronisingly.

At no point does Ali G ever mention his own religious beliefs. In the (awful) film, his name is revealed as Alister Graham.

It's a parody of West Indian yuf in England.

He's a parody of a TV presenter imitating West Indian yuf, dear boy.

I thought every British schoolboy knew that.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #325 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:58pm

freediver wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 9:39am:

polite_gandalf wrote on Dec 16^th, 2016 at 11:40am:

Apparently, the "clear reference to racial groupings" as well as "his desire for genocide" is all encapsulated in that one phrase "arabia for arabs" - correct FD?

Just one problem - arabs are not a race, they are a linguistic group, defined only by the language they speak - not from any genetic commonalities that might class them as a "race" - as understood by the 19th century notion of the word.

Interestingly, when I pointed out this clear contradiction in FD's position, he flayed away in deflection in typical fashion

Gandalf have you shifted from insisting "Arabia is for Arabs" is not racist because Arabs are not a race, to saying it is not racist because it implies no inferiority?

Quoting me out of context. My point about arabs not being a race was to highlight the logical inconsistency in your argument. You are the one insisting racism has to be about "race" - not me. I don't believe in the existence of any "race" - remember? And before you get too carried away with this new line of attack alleging that I think racism can be based on any arbitrary human categorisation (and therefore why not doctors?) - I'll simply point out that I said from the very beginning that it has to at least be based on cultural/ethnic groups (and yes, that can include religions) - real or perceived.

The fact is I said from the very beginning that 'arabs for arabia' could very well be racist - but depending on the context. It has to be asserting the superiority of one cultural/ethnic group (real or perceived) over another. I've never said anything that contradicts this basic point.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Mr Hammer

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #326 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 4:01pm

Karnal wrote on Jan 9^th, 2017 at 3:50pm:

Frank wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:50pm:

Karnal wrote on Jan 8^th, 2017 at 12:05pm:

Ali G is a parody of Britishness itself, Sore End. Cohen's having a laugh at British migrant "youth culture" as shown on British TV - patronisingly.

At no point does Ali G ever mention his own religious beliefs. In the (awful) film, his name is revealed as Alister Graham.

It's a parody of West Indian yuf in England.

He's a parody of a TV presenter imitating West Indian yuf, dear boy.

I thought every British schoolboy knew that.

He's a Jewboy making fin of the gentile. Loads of Jews do it. Jerry Springer and Mauri Povich (Jews) made millions out of it.

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Mr Hammer Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 25212 Gender:	Re: What is racism? Reply #327 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 4:01pm miam
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Aussie

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Re: What is racism?
Reply #328 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 4:17pm

Quote:

It has to be asserting the superiority of one cultural/ethnic group (real or perceived) over another. I've never said anything that contradicts this basic point.

Arabia is for Arabs is

my

term. It has zero to do with a group superiority over another. I include Jewish 'Arabs' when I use the term Arabia is for Arabs. I specifically exclude Jews from Europe, the USA and elsewhere. They ought bugger orf, and leave that Land to the Arabs.

And, Arabia is not where Western influence of a significant kind ought to be. That is what is causing the problem. We interfere all the bloody time there.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: What is racism? Reply #329 - Jan 9^th, 2017 at 4:42pm Get ready for some verballing Aussie.
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Poll
Question: Is the statement is my signature racist?
yes 5 (55.6%) no 3 (33.3%) depends 1 (11.1%) don't know 0 (0.0%) Total votes: 9 « Created by: polite_gandalf on: Jan 29^th, 2017 at 9:05am »