Australian Politics Forum - Not a bad write-up.

freediver

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #15 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:20pm

Quote:

Nope. I believe that Mohammed was a human being and had just as many failings as all human beings did. He though, it mus be admitted, a successful human being who managed to forge a religious empire out of nothing. However, just as Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or any other great military commander, he really cannot be judged by 21st century standards of morality.

So why do you keep interjecting when we criticise people for holding him up as an eternal example of moral leadership for all mankind?

Quote:

You, however want to judge his actions by today's standards and are surprised that they don't measure up.

I would be happy to leave him in the 7th century. It is Muslims who want him in the 21st.

Quote:

While Muslims may hold him up as a paragon of virtue, I don't.

Why are you afraid to criticise Muslims for holding him as a man of virtue while being eager to criticise people for agreeing wiyth you - that he does not stack up by modern standards?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Auggie

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #16 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:24pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:15pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 5:14pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:37pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:22pm:

Do you disagree with anything he said?

I disagree with most of what he says, FD. He deliberately paints a foul picture of Islam and Mohammed, without attempt to understand the context of what Mohammed did and why he did it. Rather like you, he seems to be applying early 21st century Western morality to early Arab 15th century circumstances. He does so because he is a self-confessed Islamophobe. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

He paints a foul picture of Muhammed because Muhammed was a foul person and that is an entirely reasonable picture to create. You would have no problem at all with this if it were not for the millions of people who use him as a 21st century moral guide, which for some reason compels you to abandon morality in judging him.

Nope. I believe that Mohammed was a human being and had just as many failings as all human beings did. He though, it mus be admitted, a successful human being who managed to forge a religious empire out of nothing. However, just as Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or any other great military commander, he really cannot be judged by 21st century standards of morality. In the 14th century they did things differently, just as they did in earlier periods. You, however want to judge his actions by today's standards and are surprised that they don't measure up. Don't try and erect a strawman argument, FD, it doesn't work with me. Mohammed was a man who lived ~1400 years ago. While Muslims may hold him up as a paragon of virtue, I don't. He was a man and nothing more to me. He had his failings, like all men.

We don't see you judging Julius Caesar or Alexander the Great or Chingiz Khan or anybody else from history in the same manner. Roll Eyes

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« Last Edit: Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:49pm by Auggie »

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Brian Ross

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #17 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:43pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:20pm:

Quote:

Nope. I believe that Mohammed was a human being and had just as many failings as all human beings did. He though, it mus be admitted, a successful human being who managed to forge a religious empire out of nothing. However, just as Alexander the Great or Julius Caesar or any other great military commander, he really cannot be judged by 21st century standards of morality.

So why do you keep interjecting when we criticise people for holding him up as an eternal example of moral leadership for all mankind?

I don't. I object to you judging his actions by 21st century standards of morality. You can judge the Muslims who hold up as being fools but you really cannot judge Mohammed for his actions in that way. The world ~1400 years ago was far more violent and dangerous than it is now. Roll Eyes

Quote:

You, however want to judge his actions by today's standards and are surprised that they don't measure up.

I would be happy to leave him in the 7th century. It is Muslims who want him in the 21st.

Just like Christians like Christ to be in the 21st Century or Hindus who want their multitude of gods to be in the 21st Century? How about Buddhists? We don't hear you criticising them, now do we, FD? I wonder why the over-emphasis all the time on Muslims? Islamophobia? Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

Quote:

While Muslims may hold him up as a paragon of virtue, I don't.

Why are you afraid to criticise Muslims for holding him as a man of virtue while being eager to criticise people for agreeing wiyth you - that he does not stack up by modern standards?

I am not afraid of criticising Muslims. I just don't see the point, just as I don't see the point of criticising Mormons or Christadelphians or Catholics for their beliefs, FD. They are theirs and long as they don't intrude on me, I'm happy. I've never had a Muslim knocking on my front door and asking me to believe in Allah. Funny that, hey? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Yadda

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #18 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:44pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:37pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:22pm:

Do you disagree with anything he said?

I disagree with most of what he says, FD. He deliberately paints a foul picture of Islam and Mohammed, without attempt to understand the context of what Mohammed did and why he did it. Rather like you, he seems to be applying early 21st century Western morality to early Arab 15th century circumstances.

He does so because he is a self-confessed Islamophobe.

Those 'ISLAMOPHOBES' Brian !!!

You can travel through time, yet you just can't escape them !

/sarc off

Quote:

Was Marco Polo an ‘Islamophobe’?

2010/04/16 by Raymond Ibrahim

[Marco Polo]......According to their doctrine, whatever is stolen or plundered from others of a different faith, is properly taken, and the theft is no crime; whilst those who suffer death or injury by the hands of Christians, are considered as martyrs. If, therefore, they were not prohibited and restrained by the powers who now govern them, they would commit many outrages. These principles are common to all Saracens (p.63).

[Raymond Ibrahim] In fact, based on the Muslim prophet Muhammad’s numerous raiding expeditions, plundering infidels is quite standard in Islam and treated regularly in legal manuals; the Koran has an entire chapter dedicated to and named after plunder (Surat al-Anfal). As for being a martyr simply by dying at the hands of the infidel enemy, this too has ample support in Islam’s texts and enjoys consensus among the ulema. The authoritative Hans Wehr Arabic-English Dictionary translates shahid (martyr) as “one killed in battle with infidels.”

[Raymond Ibrahim] A more telling anecdote follows: According to Polo, a certain “Achmath” (probably “Ahmed”), one of the few Muslims to have had great influence over Kublai Khan, habitually abused the largely non-Muslim subject peoples without the Khan’s knowledge: he put to death anyone he pleased, robbed them of their possessions, and, most notoriously, he and his sons regularly raped and coerced into concubinage countless women. Due to Achmath’s many atrocities, he was eventually assassinated. When the Khan later discovered the extent of Achmath’s crimes, his

[Marco Polo] ......attention [went] to the doctrines of the Sect of the Saracens [i.e., Islam], which excuse every crime, yea, even murder itself, when committed on such as are not of their religion. And seeing that this doctrine had led the accursed Achmath and his sons to act as they did without any sense of guilt, the Khan was led to entertain the greatest disgust and abomination for it. So he summoned the Saracens and prohibited their doing many things which their religion enjoined (p.173).

http://raymondibrahim.com/2010/04/16/was-marco-polo-an-islamophobe/

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"....And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."
Luke 16:31

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freediver

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #19 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:50pm

Quote:

I am not afraid of criticising Muslims. I just don't see the point, just as I don't see the point of criticising Mormons or Christadelphians or Catholics for their beliefs, FD. They are theirs and long as they don't intrude on me, I'm happy. I've never had a Muslim knocking on my front door and asking me to believe in Allah. Funny that, hey?

You are afraid to criticise Muslims Brian. Exhibit 1:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 5:19pm:

Perhaps this twisted apologism is why Brian is so willing to pass moral judgement on Australians but not Muhammed:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV. I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments. It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them. I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

If Muslims held up a rock as their moral compass, and we responded by saying it is just a rock, you would feel compelled to criticise us for judging the rock by human standards, and you would insist you have no right or even ability to criticise foreign rock-worshippers.

In order to criticise Muslims for holding Muhammed up as an eternal example for all mankind, it is absolutely essential to criticise Muhammed himself and to judge him by modern standards, precisely because Muslims hold him to be a modern and eternal example. There is no other way to do it. To insist we must navigate around your objections is to tie yourself into convoluted knots of spineless apologetics, which is no trouble for people who have no spine, but for those of us with a spine it is simply not possible.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Brian Ross

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #20 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:10pm

What a shame you failed to read the whole work, Yadda.

Quote:

(It is significant to note that, in both of Polo’s block quotes above, he criticizes Muslim doctrine — not so much Muslim peoples. In other words, he allows for what would today be called “moderate” Muslims, as shown by his aforementioned praise for individual Muslim leaders.)

[Source]

Polo was not an "Islamophobe", he did not hate Muslims or even Islam. Unlike you. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Brian Ross

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #21 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:12pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

I am not afraid of criticising Muslims. I just don't see the point, just as I don't see the point of criticising Mormons or Christadelphians or Catholics for their beliefs, FD. They are theirs and long as they don't intrude on me, I'm happy. I've never had a Muslim knocking on my front door and asking me to believe in Allah. Funny that, hey?

You are afraid to criticise Muslims Brian.

You will believe what you want to believe and you will post what ever you desire to post, FD. Nothing I say will ever make you change your mind. So, lets leave it at that. I am magnanimous and willing to disagree with you. Are you willing to disagree with me? I suspect not. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Karnal

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #22 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:22pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 5:19pm:

Perhaps this twisted apologism is why Brian is so willing to pass moral judgement on Australians but not Muhammed:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV. I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments. It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them. I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

Wacism, innit.

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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 96597	Re: Not a bad write-up. Reply #23 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:24pm freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:22pm: Do you disagree with anything he said? I think we're all rather curious about you, FD. Do you disagree with anything Pickering says?
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #24 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:27pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:22pm:

Do you disagree with anything he said?

Yes it is full of factual errors. For example the concept of the 'Dar al-Islam' and 'Dar al-harb' was invented centuries after Muhammad's death.

Quote:

He insulted the Christians by stating that Jesus was not the son of God, but a Muslim prophet. To add insult, he claimed the ancestors of all the other religions were all burning in hell because they were not Muslim, going so far as to tell the other religious leaders that they, too, would burn in hell as Islam was the only true religion.
His growing confidence, aggression and religious intolerance put out the noses of the local leaders.
Attempts to pacify and mediate with Mohammed proved unsuccessful, so the leaders hatched a plot to kill him to restore harmony in the community.

What do you think about this FD?

Basically what he's saying is Muhammad peacefully preached things that the leaders didn't approve of, so they tried to kill him for it - after first trying to silence him.

Actually, the truth is Muhammad was promoting dangerous ideas of social justice amongst the most disadvantaged and discriminated in society - which was obviously unacceptable to the elites at the time.

You used to mock the idea that there was an assassination attempt on Muhammad - which caused the migration to Medina. So I guess this is something you disagree with no?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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greggerypeccary

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #25 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:33pm

Just to clarify, this article is from Paul Zanetti.

http://zanettisview.com/story/islam-and-women-a-historical-perspective/4141

Pickering has merely reposted it on his own trashy website.

Interestingly, he changed the title from:

"Islam And Women - A Historical Perspective"

To:

"OF COURSE I'M A HALF-WIT ... ONLY MUSLIM MEN CAN BE FULL-WITS - Yassmin Abdel-Magied's extraordinary claim!"

That shows you what sort of creep the guy is.

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Karnal

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #26 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 8:03pm

Aussie wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 5:17pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 5:14pm:

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:37pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 4:22pm:

Do you disagree with anything he said?

I disagree with most of what he says, FD. He deliberately paints a foul picture of Islam and Mohammed, without attempt to understand the context of what Mohammed did and why he did it. Rather like you, he seems to be applying early 21st century Western morality to early Arab 15th century circumstances. He does so because he is a self-confessed Islamophobe. Tsk, tsk. Roll Eyes

He paints a foul picture of Muhammed because Muhammed was a foul person and that is an entirely reasonable picture to create. You would have no problem at all with this if it were not for the millions of people who use him as a 21st century moral guide, which for some reason compels you to abandon morality in judging him.

Effendi, I am yet again most abjectly sorry that I have to disturd your serendipitous bliss, but would you mind ever so much reading the PM I sent you many hours ago concerning an accusation of paedophilia levelled directly against me and two other Members?

As FD says, Aussie, no one has the right to not be offended.

It could have been worse. They could have called you a stinking apologist

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freediver

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #27 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 8:07pm

Brian Ross wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:12pm:

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 6:50pm:

Quote:

I am not afraid of criticising Muslims. I just don't see the point, just as I don't see the point of criticising Mormons or Christadelphians or Catholics for their beliefs, FD. They are theirs and long as they don't intrude on me, I'm happy. I've never had a Muslim knocking on my front door and asking me to believe in Allah. Funny that, hey?

You are afraid to criticise Muslims Brian.

You will believe what you want to believe and you will post what ever you desire to post, FD. Nothing I say will ever make you change your mind. So, lets leave it at that. I am magnanimous and willing to disagree with you. Are you willing to disagree with me? I suspect not. Roll Eyes

You previously accused me of taking this quote out of context brian, but would not clarify in what way you wish to disown it. Do you still hold these views?

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV. I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments. It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them. I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

Quote:

What do you think about this FD?
Basically what he's saying is Muhammad peacefully preached things that the leaders didn't approve of, so they tried to kill him for it - after first trying to silence him.

I think people had good reason to try to kill him. I am not aware of the details of what happened in Mecca. In Medina, Muhammed was openly hostile to Jews and threatening them, at the same time as Muslims such as yourself expected the Jews to remain bound to whatever treay they had.

BTW, how did you make the leap from "growing aggression and intolerance" to "peacefully preaching"?

Quote:

Actually, the truth is Muhammad was promoting dangerous ideas of social justice amongst the most disadvantaged and discriminated in society - which was obviously unacceptable to the elites at the time.

Whatever limited improvements he preached relative to conditions at the time (tolerance of diversity was obviously not among them), his long term influence was to destroy western civilisation by locking it into the most uncivilised and brutal ideology. Muhammed was a grand hypocrite to the extent he initially preached peace and tolerance, and the people who opposed him no doubt saw this. Muhammed's later actions validate their judgement of him.

Quote:

You used to mock the idea that there was an assassination attempt on Muhammad - which caused the migration to Medina. So I guess this is something you disagree with no?

I mocked it for the same reason I woulkd mock a Nazi complaining about western interference in Hitler's grand scheme of a thousand year reich.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #28 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 8:10pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 7:33pm:

Just to clarify, this article is from Paul Zanetti.

http://zanettisview.com/story/islam-and-women-a-historical-perspective/4141

Pickering has merely reposted it on his own trashy website.

Interestingly, he changed the title from:

"Islam And Women - A Historical Perspective"

To:

"OF COURSE I'M A HALF-WIT ... ONLY MUSLIM MEN CAN BE FULL-WITS - Yassmin Abdel-Magied's extraordinary claim!"

That shows you what sort of creep the guy is.

No no, it shows FD's sense of humour.

FD's one of those few who reads Pickering for the articles.

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Grendel

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Re: Not a bad write-up.
Reply #29 - Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 8:43pm

freediver wrote on Feb 22^nd, 2017 at 5:19pm:

Perhaps this twisted apologism is why Brian is so willing to pass moral judgement on Australians but not Muhammed:

Brian Ross wrote on Sep 15^th, 2013 at 5:39pm:

I make no excuses for those nations and their laws, BV. I merely recognise that it is their right to create and unfortunately impose those punishments. It is terrible but I also recognise I have no right or ability to criticise them. I am neither a member of their religion or a citizen of any of those nations.

yes well posting bwian is a lying hypocrite is de rigueur these days.

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