Australian Politics Forum - A wake up call from Pickering.

Brian Ross

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #15 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 5:46pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 5:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

Very correct.

Islam does not allow for 'interpretations', modifying with upgradings, etc as Christianity does. Therein lies its danger.

The Koran is composed of the literal Will/Word of Allah as spoken through his prophet.

Just as does the King James version of The Bible, according to some Christian extremists, Herbie.

Why do you never consider that in your meanderings through the web? Mmmmm? Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49400 At my desk.	Re: A wake up call from Pickering. Reply #16 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 6:55pm You sure about that Brian? http://www.ozpolitic.com/wiki/index.php?title=Political_History_of_Islam#Forced_...
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Auggie

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #17 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:39pm

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 5:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

Very correct.

Islam does not allow for 'interpretations', modifying with upgradings, etc as Christianity does. Therein lies its danger.

The Koran is composed of the literal Will/Word of Allah as spoken through his prophet.

There are numerous interpretations in Islam. There are numerous schools of thought, diverse sects, such as Sufis, Alevis, etc. Shias have a slightly different theology and practices, and tend to be more tolerant than Sunnis.

That the Quran is the the literal Word of God is a problem with the interpretation of the Quran, not the religion itself. There was a time when people believed that the Bible was the Word of God. Many Muslims read their scriptures in the same way as Christians do - within context.

Finally, I'm not downplaying the threat or seriousness of terrorists, I just don't believe that their motivations are purely Islamic. There's a huge leap between thought and deed, and the connecting factor is psychopathy, not belief or religion.

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The Progressive President

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Dnarever Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 59231 Here Gender:	Re: A wake up call from Pickering. Reply #18 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:43pm Quote: A wake up call from Pickering. You should have never given him your phone number.
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Baronvonrort

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #19 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:46pm

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 4:15pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

The verse you quoted was from when Muhammad was in Medina. The verses of that period are contextualized, and no longer apply to today's world. Muslims should ignore any verse that contradicts with an early Meccan.

No muslim will ever admit there are contradictions in the Quran, even Gandalf conceded Muhammad al Razi was an atheist because he said the Quran is full of contradictions.
The fine print in the Quran says it's not from Allah if there are contradictions- quran.com/4/82

Are you saying muslims should start drinking alcohol because early verse allows it?
quran.com/16/67

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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Auggie

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #20 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:51pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:46pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 4:15pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

The verse you quoted was from when Muhammad was in Medina. The verses of that period are contextualized, and no longer apply to today's world. Muslims should ignore any verse that contradicts with an early Meccan.

No muslim will ever admit there are contradictions in the Quran, even Gandalf conceded Muhammad al Razi was an atheist because he said the Quran is full of contradictions.
The fine print in the Quran says it's not from Allah if there are contradictions- quran.com/4/82

Are you saying muslims should start drinking alcohol because early verse allows it?
quran.com/16/67

I don't care what some bunch of 'scholars' have told Muslims to believe. I am an individual with the ability to think rationally. I can interpret scriptures, texts, words however I like, and if I choose to identify myself as a Muslim (although I am not), then that's it.

And yes, I'm saying that Muslims can drink alcohol.

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freediver

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Posts: 49400
At my desk.

Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #21 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:11pm

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:39pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 5:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

Very correct.

Islam does not allow for 'interpretations', modifying with upgradings, etc as Christianity does. Therein lies its danger.

The Koran is composed of the literal Will/Word of Allah as spoken through his prophet.

There are numerous interpretations in Islam. There are numerous schools of thought, diverse sects, such as Sufis, Alevis, etc. Shias have a slightly different theology and practices, and tend to be more tolerant than Sunnis.

That the Quran is the the literal Word of God is a problem with the interpretation of the Quran, not the religion itself. There was a time when people believed that the Bible was the Word of God. Many Muslims read their scriptures in the same way as Christians do - within context.

Finally, I'm not downplaying the threat or seriousness of terrorists, I just don't believe that their motivations are purely Islamic. There's a huge leap between thought and deed, and the connecting factor is psychopathy, not belief or religion.

Every community or group of people has psychopaths. Not every one has terrorists.

Are you saying psychopathy lies somewhere between thought and deed? Where does religion lie on that spectrum?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #22 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:13pm

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:51pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:46pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 4:15pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

The verse you quoted was from when Muhammad was in Medina. The verses of that period are contextualized, and no longer apply to today's world. Muslims should ignore any verse that contradicts with an early Meccan.

No muslim will ever admit there are contradictions in the Quran, even Gandalf conceded Muhammad al Razi was an atheist because he said the Quran is full of contradictions.
The fine print in the Quran says it's not from Allah if there are contradictions- quran.com/4/82

Are you saying muslims should start drinking alcohol because early verse allows it?
quran.com/16/67

I don't care what some bunch of 'scholars' have told Muslims to believe. I am an individual with the ability to think rationally. I can interpret scriptures, texts, words however I like, and if I choose to identify myself as a Muslim (although I am not), then that's it.

And yes, I'm saying that Muslims can drink alcohol.

I guess every muslim who knows alcohol is haram disagrees with your nonsense on Islam

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Leftists and the Ayatollahs have a lot in common when it comes to criticism of Islam, they don't tolerate it.

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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 139295 Gender:	Re: A wake up call from Pickering. Reply #23 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:15pm Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:51pm: And yes, I'm saying that Muslims can drink alcohol. Absolutely they can, and many do. Most don't, but many do.
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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 49400 At my desk.	Re: A wake up call from Pickering. Reply #24 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:17pm Muslims can also reject Islam in it's entirety, thanks to the freedoms we have won for them. Brian will be pleased to know that this freedom does not involve getting your head chopped off.
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Auggie

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Posts: 8571

Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #25 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:22pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:11pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:39pm:

Lord Herbert wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 5:21pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

Very correct.

Islam does not allow for 'interpretations', modifying with upgradings, etc as Christianity does. Therein lies its danger.

The Koran is composed of the literal Will/Word of Allah as spoken through his prophet.

There are numerous interpretations in Islam. There are numerous schools of thought, diverse sects, such as Sufis, Alevis, etc. Shias have a slightly different theology and practices, and tend to be more tolerant than Sunnis.

That the Quran is the the literal Word of God is a problem with the interpretation of the Quran, not the religion itself. There was a time when people believed that the Bible was the Word of God. Many Muslims read their scriptures in the same way as Christians do - within context.

Finally, I'm not downplaying the threat or seriousness of terrorists, I just don't believe that their motivations are purely Islamic. There's a huge leap between thought and deed, and the connecting factor is psychopathy, not belief or religion.

Every community or group of people has psychopaths. Not every one has terrorists.

Are you saying psychopathy lies somewhere between thought and deed? Where does religion lie on that spectrum?

I think that Terrorism is the MANNER in which they commit crimes. The extremists have been very good at bringing these people together and organizing them; that's the key - organization.

I'm no expert on psychology. What I know is that it's a hell of leap of faith to believe in God, let alone an afterlife; and even to believe that you will go to Heaven if you do something bad.

I don't think the issue is religion as it is more tribal. The scene of the mother giving her son away to ISIS is a tribal thing, not a religious thing. The erosion of the nation-state in the Middle East I think is a huge problem.

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Auggie

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #26 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:23pm

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:13pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:51pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 7:46pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 4:15pm:

Baronvonrort wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 2:45pm:

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 1:47pm:

The issue is not with Islam, but with Islamism. The religion of Islam is diverse and consists of many teachings and interpretations. Islamism is the desire to impose Islam as a political ideology on people. There must be a distinction.

How do you separate the political ideology from religion with Islam?

The Quran tells muslims they cannot pick and choose what parts of the scripture they believe, this is where Islam differs from Christianity it's a package deal if you want entry into the heavenly brothel.
Quote:

So do you believe in part of the scripture and disbelieve in part? Then what is the recompense for those who do that among you except disgrace in worldly life; and on the day of resurrection they will be sent to the severest of punishment. And Allah is not unaware of what you do.
quran.com/2/85

The verse you quoted was from when Muhammad was in Medina. The verses of that period are contextualized, and no longer apply to today's world. Muslims should ignore any verse that contradicts with an early Meccan.

No muslim will ever admit there are contradictions in the Quran, even Gandalf conceded Muhammad al Razi was an atheist because he said the Quran is full of contradictions.
The fine print in the Quran says it's not from Allah if there are contradictions- quran.com/4/82

Are you saying muslims should start drinking alcohol because early verse allows it?
quran.com/16/67

I don't care what some bunch of 'scholars' have told Muslims to believe. I am an individual with the ability to think rationally. I can interpret scriptures, texts, words however I like, and if I choose to identify myself as a Muslim (although I am not), then that's it.

And yes, I'm saying that Muslims can drink alcohol.

I guess every muslim who knows alcohol is haram disagrees with your nonsense on Islam

Perhaps, but I'm an individual with the capacity to USE MY BRAIN and to rationalize. Although I'm not that religious, I know that God would never command a person to kill another person.

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Auggie

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #27 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:25pm

freediver wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:17pm:

Muslims can also reject Islam in it's entirety, thanks to the freedoms we have won for them. Brian will be pleased to know that this freedom does not involve getting your head chopped off.

It was like that in the early traditions of Islam. If you become an apostate, then you would suffer the penalty in the afterlife; but it never prescribed another person to kill another person. That was later.

Also, don't forget that disbelief was always in tandem with 'doing bad things.' The two were never separated in Islam. If you were a believer, it was because you believed but also did righteous deeds.

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Baronvonrort

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Re: A wake up call from Pickering.
Reply #28 - Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:31pm

Auggie wrote on Mar 8^th, 2017 at 8:23pm: