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Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam (Read 42236 times)
polite_gandalf
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #120 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:07pm
 
Aussie wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:54pm:
I just don't buy the Muslim -v- Jew part of Effendi's position.


It requires particularly strong expertise in cherry picking of wikipedia articles - the only source FD allows himself to read.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #121 - Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:37pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:48pm:
freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Being Jewish was central to the problem that Muhammad saw. The Jews were more reluctant to convert to Islam. They mocked Muhammad. Muhammad had expected them to be natural allies. He thought of himself as "their" profit, and often told them so, and obviously had issues with their rejection. Being large groups, their existence in Medina posed a threat to his quest for power. Being three groups who shared a religion, there was a risk they would unite against him - hence slaughtering the third tribe once he had kicked out the other two. They tended to have closer (trade) ties to Mecca and did not share with Muhammad or the pagans allied with him an animosity towards Mecca. Given that Muhammad was funding his rise to power by robbing Meccan caravans, that was inevitably going to cause problems also. Muhammad let small, politically insignificant groups of Jews remain, but he instructed his successors to ethnically cleanse the whole area of non-Muslims, which happened shortly after his death.

After Medina, the pagans tended to cop it even worse than the Jews.


And what an actual historian says...

Quote:
The continuing presence of at least a few Jews in Medina
is an argument against the view sometimes put forward by
European scholars that in the second year after the Hijrah
Muhammad adopted a policy of clearing all Jews out of
Medina just because they were Jews, and that he carried out
this policy with ever-increasing severity. It was not
Muhammad's way to have policies of this kind. He had a
balanced view of the fundamentals of the contemporary
situation and of his long-term aims, and in the light of this he
moulded his day-to-day plans in accordance with the changing
factors in current events. The occasions of his attacks
on the first two Jewish clans were no more than occasions ;
but there were also deep underlying reasons. The Jews in
general by their verbal criticisms of the Qur'anic revelation
were trying to undermine the foundation of the whole
Islamic community ; and . they were also giving political
support to Muhammad's enemies and to opponents such as the
Hypocrites. In so far as the Jews abandoned these forms of
hostile activity Muhammad allowed them to live in Medina
unmolested.


Montgommery Watt, Muhammad, Prophet and Statesman.


Would you mind highlighting where that contradicts my version?

Quote:
It requires particularly strong expertise in cherry picking of wikipedia articles - the only source FD allows himself to read.


I cherry picked only those things that it actually says.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #122 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:21pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Auggie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:01pm:
Brian, the actions of the founders of each religious tradition necessarily inform the practices of its adherents. Sure, Islam is more than Muhammad as Christianity is more than Christ but both religious traditions teach to follow the example of Muhammad and Christ.

Surely, you recognise that Jesus was undoubtedly more pacifistic than Muhammad in his actions.

Muhammad was a spiritual and military leader who established a state on earth. Jesus’ state and overlordship was in heaven and spirit.



Oh, deari, Augie.  Doesn't matter how pacifist the founder is, it is how his message is "reinterpreted" that matters.  Christianity was and still remains an extremely violent religion.  So is Islam.   Mohammed was trying to assert his will against an unwilling populace.   Christianity since Christ was doing the same.   In the end, both ended up converting peoples en mass by the sword.   Should we only be criticising Islam and allow Christianity a free pass on the topic?  I don't believe so.  What about you, Augie?    Roll Eyes


By "doing the same" do you mean Muhammad was teaching people to rape and pillage while Jesus was teaching forgiveness? You have some very strange ideas of what it means to do the same thing.

Also, are you actually arguing that how pacifist the founder of a religion is, or how pacifist his teachings are, has no bearing at all on how people interpret those teachings? Or are you just pretending to be an idiot?

"In the end" what happened is that Christian Europe lead the current global transition towards freedom and democracy, while Muslim societies remained forever backwards to this day, to the extent that even the countries you and Gandalf hold up as progressive Muslim nations are doing aweful things like legislating the death penalty for apostasy. Islam destroyed most of western civilisation, turning the most advanced societies on earth into the most backwards.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #123 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:02pm
 
freediver wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:21pm:
"In the end" what happened is that Christian Europe lead the current global transition towards freedom and democracy, while Muslim societies remained forever backwards to this day, to the extent that even the countries you and Gandalf hold up as progressive Muslim nations are doing aweful things like legislating the death penalty for apostasy. Islam destroyed most of western civilisation, turning the most advanced societies on earth into the most backwards.


Exactly, because in the end, despite the despicable actions of people in the name of Christianity, the religion ultimately was able to prosecute these actions (because of Jesus) and had the impetus to reform society (in accordance with some of the teachings of Jesus).
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #124 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:07pm
 
Another thing that needs to be examined about these three religions is what it takes to convert to them.

I understand Judaism is the hardest, where over a year or so a Rabbi will try his best to talk you out of it, and if you're still hanging around, you're in...maybe.

Different flavours of Christianity vary, but you have to learn stuff and make some effort.

Islam.....takes about 10 seconds and you're a Mohamadian
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #125 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:08pm
 
Aussie wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:54pm:
I just don't buy the Muslim -v- Jew part of Effendi's position.  If this thing ever happened at all, I am far more likely to view it as military action against a political opponent, than a War of (between) Religion (s.)


At the time though, Aussie, because of tribalism, being a non-Muslim (or a non-Jew for that fact in Jewish societies) constituted a kind of sedition or treason. The way we understand 'disbelief' or atheism in the current context of a secular state wasn't known to tribal societies.

In this regard, Muhammad conducted pre-emptive warfare to create a centralized state over the Arabian peninsula. This is in of itself not historical unprecedented and wouldn't be an issue, except for the fact that everything that he did up until his death was considered to be 'perfect' and worthy of example. The fact that he is an example to emulate by God is also another issue.

I don't think it was aggressive warfare, but neither was it digging in trenches and waiting for the enemy to come. It was, as I said, preemptive warfare: attacking a group of people who were 'perceived' as a threat.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #126 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:10pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 7:25pm:
Aussie wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 3:53pm:
Quote:
Even if they were Jews, and they were slaughtered?


What, according to the myth you perpetuate, were they slaughtered for?  Being Jewish per se?


According to Gandalf, for being a mindless collective of treacherous Jews.



No, FD, according to Gandalf for violating a treaty. According to you for being a mindless collective of treacherous Jews.

I'm curious. Do you uphold the use of porkies in your campaign against the Muselman?
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #127 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:12pm
 
freediver wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:20pm:
Being Jewish was central to the problem that Muhammad saw. The Jews were more reluctant to convert to Islam. They mocked Muhammad. Muhammad had expected them to be natural allies. He thought of himself as "their" profit, and often told them so, and obviously had issues with their rejection.


Where do you get this historical account from, FD?
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #128 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:15pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 10:07pm:
Aussie wrote on Mar 22nd, 2017 at 9:54pm:
I just don't buy the Muslim -v- Jew part of Effendi's position.


It requires particularly strong expertise in cherry picking of wikipedia articles - the only source FD allows himself to read.


Oh? I thought he'd read Chapter 9.

Sinister.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #129 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:21pm
 
Gordon wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:07pm:
Another thing that needs to be examined about these three religions is what it takes to convert to them.

I understand Judaism is the hardest, where over a year or so a Rabbi will try his best to talk you out of it, and if you're still hanging around, you're in...maybe.



Only voluntarily, Gordon. The other way is to be taken into slavery by a Jew.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #130 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:35pm
 
Karnal wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:21pm:
Gordon wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 1:07pm:
Another thing that needs to be examined about these three religions is what it takes to convert to them.

I understand Judaism is the hardest, where over a year or so a Rabbi will try his best to talk you out of it, and if you're still hanging around, you're in...maybe.



Only voluntarily, Gordon. The other way is to be taken into slavery by a Jew.


Do you have some examples of Jews taking slaves, in the last 100 years perhaps?

I have plenty of recent examples of slavery in the name of Islam.

Eagerly awaiting your reply.


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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #131 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 3:16pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Auggie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:01pm:
Brian, the actions of the founders of each religious tradition necessarily inform the practices of its adherents. Sure, Islam is more than Muhammad as Christianity is more than Christ but both religious traditions teach to follow the example of Muhammad and Christ.

Surely, you recognise that Jesus was undoubtedly more pacifistic than Muhammad in his actions.

Muhammad was a spiritual and military leader who established a state on earth. Jesus’ state and overlordship was in heaven and spirit.



Oh, deari, Augie.  Doesn't matter how pacifist the founder is, it is how his message is "reinterpreted" that matters.  Christianity was and still remains an extremely violent religion.  So is Islam.   Mohammed was trying to assert his will against an unwilling populace.   
  Christianity since Christ was doing the same. 
 In the end, both ended up converting peoples en mass by the sword.   Should we only be criticising Islam and allow Christianity a free pass on the topic?  I don't believe so.  What about you, Augie?    Roll Eyes


Well that is not true bwian Jesus came to pay a debt and in doing so fulfill a prophecy.  He did not come to conquer, he did not use the sword to spread his teachings.

He is not responsible for the misdeeds of men who have been given free will bwian surely as a DR of Divinity you must know something on topic.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #132 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:08pm
 
Grendel wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 3:16pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Auggie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:01pm:
Brian, the actions of the founders of each religious tradition necessarily inform the practices of its adherents. Sure, Islam is more than Muhammad as Christianity is more than Christ but both religious traditions teach to follow the example of Muhammad and Christ.

Surely, you recognise that Jesus was undoubtedly more pacifistic than Muhammad in his actions.

Muhammad was a spiritual and military leader who established a state on earth. Jesus’ state and overlordship was in heaven and spirit.



Oh, deari, Augie.  Doesn't matter how pacifist the founder is, it is how his message is "reinterpreted" that matters.  Christianity was and still remains an extremely violent religion.  So is Islam.   Mohammed was trying to assert his will against an unwilling populace.   
  Christianity since Christ was doing the same. 
 In the end, both ended up converting peoples en mass by the sword.   Should we only be criticising Islam and allow Christianity a free pass on the topic?  I don't believe so.  What about you, Augie?    Roll Eyes


Well that is not true bwian Jesus came to pay a debt and in doing so fulfill a prophecy.  He did not come to conquer, he did not use the sword to spread his teachings.

He is not responsible for the misdeeds of men who have been given free will bwian surely as a DR of Divinity you must know something on topic.


Brian, equating Islamism with Christian fundamentalism is a false equivalence. Christianity has long accepted the secular state. Secularism is not possible in Islam. It's either take it or leave it. Some people of course, like Gandalf, are perfectly happy to have double-think and believe in both contradictions.
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #133 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:51pm
 
Auggie wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:08pm:
Grendel wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 3:16pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Auggie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:01pm:
Brian, the actions of the founders of each religious tradition necessarily inform the practices of its adherents. Sure, Islam is more than Muhammad as Christianity is more than Christ but both religious traditions teach to follow the example of Muhammad and Christ.

Surely, you recognise that Jesus was undoubtedly more pacifistic than Muhammad in his actions.

Muhammad was a spiritual and military leader who established a state on earth. Jesus’ state and overlordship was in heaven and spirit.



Oh, deari, Augie.  Doesn't matter how pacifist the founder is, it is how his message is "reinterpreted" that matters.  Christianity was and still remains an extremely violent religion.  So is Islam.   Mohammed was trying to assert his will against an unwilling populace.   
  Christianity since Christ was doing the same. 
 In the end, both ended up converting peoples en mass by the sword.   Should we only be criticising Islam and allow Christianity a free pass on the topic?  I don't believe so.  What about you, Augie?    Roll Eyes


Well that is not true bwian Jesus came to pay a debt and in doing so fulfill a prophecy.  He did not come to conquer, he did not use the sword to spread his teachings.

He is not responsible for the misdeeds of men who have been given free will bwian surely as a DR of Divinity you must know something on topic.


Brian, equating Islamism with Christian fundamentalism is a false equivalence. Christianity has long accepted the secular state. Secularism is not possible in Islam. It's either take it or leave it. Some people of course, like Gandalf, are perfectly happy to have double-think and believe in both contradictions.


Not been paying attention to matters in the US very well, have you, Augie?  Tsk, tsk.    Roll Eyes
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It seems that I have upset a Moderator and are forbidden from using memes. So much for Freedom of Speech. Tsk, tsk, tsk...   Roll Eyes Roll Eyes
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Re: Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam
Reply #134 - Feb 15th, 2018 at 7:15pm
 
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:51pm:
Auggie wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 6:08pm:
Grendel wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 3:16pm:
Brian Ross wrote on Feb 15th, 2018 at 12:26am:
Auggie wrote on Feb 14th, 2018 at 11:01pm:
Brian, the actions of the founders of each religious tradition necessarily inform the practices of its adherents. Sure, Islam is more than Muhammad as Christianity is more than Christ but both religious traditions teach to follow the example of Muhammad and Christ.

Surely, you recognise that Jesus was undoubtedly more pacifistic than Muhammad in his actions.

Muhammad was a spiritual and military leader who established a state on earth. Jesus’ state and overlordship was in heaven and spirit.



Oh, deari, Augie.  Doesn't matter how pacifist the founder is, it is how his message is "reinterpreted" that matters.  Christianity was and still remains an extremely violent religion.  So is Islam.   Mohammed was trying to assert his will against an unwilling populace.   
  Christianity since Christ was doing the same. 
 In the end, both ended up converting peoples en mass by the sword.   Should we only be criticising Islam and allow Christianity a free pass on the topic?  I don't believe so.  What about you, Augie?    Roll Eyes


Well that is not true bwian Jesus came to pay a debt and in doing so fulfill a prophecy.  He did not come to conquer, he did not use the sword to spread his teachings.

He is not responsible for the misdeeds of men who have been given free will bwian surely as a DR of Divinity you must know something on topic.


Brian, equating Islamism with Christian fundamentalism is a false equivalence. Christianity has long accepted the secular state. Secularism is not possible in Islam. It's either take it or leave it. Some people of course, like Gandalf, are perfectly happy to have double-think and believe in both contradictions.


Not been paying attention to matters in the US very well, have you, Augie?  Tsk, tsk.    Roll Eyes


First question: when was the last Christian fundamentalist attack?

Second question: name me the Christian organisation which strives for a global theocracy and totalitarian state?
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