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ABC on Islam and domestic violence (Read 19017 times)
Karnal
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #120 - May 17th, 2017 at 2:32pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 9:53am:
Frank, you're quite a learned guy,


University of Balogney, innit.
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #121 - May 17th, 2017 at 10:04pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 17th, 2017 at 9:53am:
You asked where - rather mockingly I might add. Are you disputing my answers? Frank, you're quite a learned guy, are you going to attempt to whitewash the undeniable prosperity and cultural flowering in Spain under the muslims? FD prefers not to talk about it.

Quote:
The period of the Caliphate is seen as the golden age of al-Andalus. Crops produced using irrigation, along with food imported from the Middle East, provided the area around Córdoba and some other Andalusī cities with an agricultural economic sector that was the most advanced in Europe by far. Among European cities, Córdoba under the Caliphate, with a population of perhaps 500,000, eventually overtook Constantinople as the largest and most prosperous city in Europe.[15] Within the Islamic world, Córdoba was one of the leading cultural centres. The work of its most important philosophers and scientists (notably Abulcasis and Averroes) had a major influence on the intellectual life of medieval Europe.

Muslims and non-Muslims often came from abroad to study in the famous libraries and universities of al-Andalus after the reconquest of Toledo in 1085. The most noted of these was Michael Scot (c. 1175 to c. 1235), who took the works of Ibn Rushd ("Averroes") and Ibn Sina ("Avicenna") to Italy. This transmission significantly affected the formation of the European Renaissance.[


...

Quote:
The historian Said al-Andalusi wrote that Caliph Abd-ar-Rahman III had collected libraries of books and granted patronage to scholars of medicine and "ancient sciences". Later, al-Mustansir (Al-Hakam II) went yet further, building a university and libraries in Córdoba. Córdoba became one of the world's leading centres of medicine and philosophical debate.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

FD calls this sort of rule by muslims "strangling"





I absolutely dispute and deny that Spain flourished under Muslim rule because it was a Muslim rule. Absolutely deny it.

It was very, very atypical Muslim rule, mostly because it was stable and therefore atypical. It was stable because the dhimmis were not fractious but wanted stability. The Muslims obliged them by being easy touch about the Islamic shite.

The inhabitants were mostly non-Muslims, with their own culture, ethos, ethics, etc.  The same in most conquered lands for centuries: Muslims remained the minority rulers, the majority population were dhimmi Jews and Christians, with their non-Muslims ethos and attitudes to work, learning, cultivation of land and self. They remained thoroughly non-Muslims throughout the Arab occupation of Spain.


The 'Muslim Golden Ages' were places and times where/when Muslims provided stable government without imposing the heavy, zealous Islamic shite that they invariable tend to end up with.

Less Islam, more Golden Age. More Islam, more shite.


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Karnal
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #122 - May 18th, 2017 at 11:53am
 
You absolutely dispute and deny, old chap. In the words of our old friend Sore End, always absolutely never ever.

The art, architecture and culture of Muslim Spain was absolutely Muslim, right down to its geometric design and its coffee.

Muslim Cordoba was the height of civilized culture at the time due to its tolerant Muslim rulers, as every schoolboy knows. You can absolutely deny this, and of course you always will.

Never ever.
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #123 - May 18th, 2017 at 4:56pm
 
Actually Frank is also wrong about the 'prosperity through stability' thesis.

Anyone who actually knows anything about the history of Cordoba knows that the height of the cultural and intellectual flowering came when the caliphate broke up into a collection of competing emirates. It was the political instability that (seemingly pardoxically) ushered in the best years for Cordoba. Perhaps because of the competition, as well as the decentralised rule.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #124 - May 18th, 2017 at 8:45pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 11:53am:
You absolutely dispute and deny, old chap. In the words of our old friend Sore End, always absolutely never ever.

The art, architecture and culture of Muslim Spain was absolutely Muslim, right down to its geometric design and its coffee.

Muslim Cordoba was the height of civilized culture at the time due to its tolerant Muslim rulers, as every schoolboy knows. You can absolutely deny this, and of course you always will.

Never ever.

They were tolerant despite being Muslim, despite Islam. The history of Islam is the testimony to that.  Why have Muslims not repeated the Andalusian experience and practice everywhere if it was such a wonderful thing? There is an experience they always hold up as proof of their enlightenment -  but one they have never once repeated.

The Golden Age and the Andalusian Muslim Enlightenment is the same sort of laughable, comical  bollocks as "Abbas ibn Firnas invented human flight" by falling off a bloody cliff.




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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #125 - May 18th, 2017 at 8:54pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 4:56pm:
Actually Frank is also wrong about the 'prosperity through stability' thesis.

Anyone who actually knows anything about the history of Cordoba knows that the height of the cultural and intellectual flowering came when the caliphate broke up into a collection of competing emirates. It was the political instability that (seemingly pardoxically) ushered in the best years for Cordoba. Perhaps because of the competition, as well as the decentralised rule.

Grin Grin Grin

Intellectual competition within Islam.

Why has it been suppressed ever since if it was the best years of Islam? 

Because it was un-Islamic. That is the long and the short of it, Gandalf. Intellectual enlightenment and the contest of ideas is simply Un-Islamic. No wonder, Islam is Submission, not Let the Best Argument Win.

You cannot have an open contestation of ideas in a culture that stones you for straying from orthodoxy.

What is Arabic for 'lipstick on a pig'?  Because that's what your efforts - and Karnal's, Mothra's Brian's, Arsie's, etc - add up to.


Why don't YOU start a thread on criticism of Islam. Lead the way.  Don't always be a reactionary. Lead the way to enlightenment. Show us how Islam is to be reclaimed.

Don't worry, your co-religionists will not find out ho you really are.i

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Karnal
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #126 - May 18th, 2017 at 9:11pm
 
Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 11:53am:
You absolutely dispute and deny, old chap. In the words of our old friend Sore End, always absolutely never ever.

The art, architecture and culture of Muslim Spain was absolutely Muslim, right down to its geometric design and its coffee.

Muslim Cordoba was the height of civilized culture at the time due to its tolerant Muslim rulers, as every schoolboy knows. You can absolutely deny this, and of course you always will.

Never ever.

They were tolerant despite being Muslim,



Ah.
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polite_gandalf
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #127 - May 18th, 2017 at 9:45pm
 
Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 8:54pm:
polite_gandalf wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 4:56pm:
Actually Frank is also wrong about the 'prosperity through stability' thesis.

Anyone who actually knows anything about the history of Cordoba knows that the height of the cultural and intellectual flowering came when the caliphate broke up into a collection of competing emirates. It was the political instability that (seemingly pardoxically) ushered in the best years for Cordoba. Perhaps because of the competition, as well as the decentralised rule.

Grin Grin Grin

Intellectual competition within Islam.

Why has it been suppressed ever since if it was the best years of Islam? 

Because it was un-Islamic. That is the long and the short of it, Gandalf. Intellectual enlightenment and the contest of ideas is simply Un-Islamic. No wonder, Islam is Submission, not Let the Best Argument Win.

You cannot have an open contestation of ideas in a culture that stones you for straying from orthodoxy.

What is Arabic for 'lipstick on a pig'?  Because that's what your efforts - and Karnal's, Mothra's Brian's, Arsie's, etc - add up to.


Why don't YOU start a thread on criticism of Islam. Lead the way.  Don't always be a reactionary. Lead the way to enlightenment. Show us how Islam is to be reclaimed.

Don't worry, your co-religionists will not find out ho you really are.


Frank, why are you laughing? You basically just conceded every point I made that contradicts your original claims. Now your argument that "yeah, but it was unIslamic" completes the about-face.

Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
They were tolerant despite being Muslim, despite Islam.


Soren/Frank once quoted a source cleverly thinking it supported his contention that the Islamic Golden Age happened despite Islam, not because of it. Unfortunately he missed the paragraph that argued that the commands in the Quran to seek knowledge were a major contributing factor.
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.
 
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Karnal
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #128 - May 18th, 2017 at 10:31pm
 
Always absolutely never ever.

On stilts, no?
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #129 - May 19th, 2017 at 9:11pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:11pm:
Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 8:45pm:
Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 11:53am:
You absolutely dispute and deny, old chap. In the words of our old friend Sore End, always absolutely never ever.

The art, architecture and culture of Muslim Spain was absolutely Muslim, right down to its geometric design and its coffee.

Muslim Cordoba was the height of civilized culture at the time due to its tolerant Muslim rulers, as every schoolboy knows. You can absolutely deny this, and of course you always will.

Never ever.

They were tolerant despite being Muslim, despite Islam.the history of Islam is the testimony to that.  Why have Muslims not repeated the Andalusian experience and practice everywhere if it was such a wonderful thing? There is an experience they always hold up as proof of their enlightenment -  but one they have never once repeated.

The Golden Age and the Andalusian Muslim Enlightenment is the same sort of laughable, comical  bollocks as "Abbas ibn Firnas invented human flight" by falling off a bloody cliff.




Ah.



Good to see you finally get it.


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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #130 - May 19th, 2017 at 9:34pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 9:45pm:
Frank wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 8:54pm:
[quote author=Frank link=1493000961/124#124 date=1495104351]They were tolerant despite being Muslim, despite Islam.


Soren/Frank once quoted a source cleverly thinking it supported his contention that the Islamic Golden Age happened despite Islam, not because of it. Unfortunately he missed the paragraph that argued that the commands in the Quran to seek knowledge were a major contributing factor.



We,, why have they stopped heeding those commands?  Because they are buried under commands you Muslims have been far, far keener to obey and shout about before and since - that's why the 'Golden Age' was so atypical a Muslim era.

In the 'Golden Age' the Muslims were still a minority in many of the 'Muslim lands' and they simply got swayed by the dhimmi culture of enquiry, curiosity, quest for knowledge, art, etc. When Muslims become a majority they go mad, ie they become fundamentalist dogmatic, sharia-compliant zombies. So good-bye curiosity, enquiry, speculative exploration and hello cats' meat, Muslim Brotherhood, wahhabism, silly beards and the missus in a bag.


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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #131 - May 20th, 2017 at 10:36am
 
Frank wrote on May 19th, 2017 at 9:34pm:
We,, why have they stopped heeding those commands?  Because they are buried under commands you Muslims have been far, far keener to obey and shout about before and since - that's why the 'Golden Age' was so atypical a Muslim era.


whoa Frank, are you acknowledging that such commands exist, and that indeed those commands did contribute to the cultural flowering that happened in the Golden Age?
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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Frank
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #132 - May 22nd, 2017 at 3:09pm
 
polite_gandalf wrote on May 20th, 2017 at 10:36am:
Frank wrote on May 19th, 2017 at 9:34pm:
We,, why have they stopped heeding those commands?  Because they are buried under commands you Muslims have been far, far keener to obey and shout about before and since - that's why the 'Golden Age' was so atypical a Muslim era.


whoa Frank, are you acknowledging that such commands exist, and that indeed those commands did contribute to the cultural flowering that happened in the Golden Age?

No. Read the WHOLE post, don't be selective (like you are always trying with Islam, the Koran, Mohammed etc).

In the 'Golden Age' the Muslims were still a minority in many of the 'Muslim lands' and they simply got swayed by the dhimmi culture of enquiry, curiosity, quest for knowledge, art, etc. When Muslims become a majority they go mad, ie they become fundamentalist dogmatic, sharia-compliant zombies. So good-bye curiosity, enquiry, speculative exploration and hello cats' meat, Muslim Brotherhood, wahhabism, silly beards and the missus in a bag.
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #133 - May 22nd, 2017 at 4:39pm
 
Karnal wrote on May 18th, 2017 at 11:53am:
You absolutely dispute and deny, old chap. In the words of our old friend Sore End, always absolutely never ever.

The art, architecture and culture of Muslim Spain was absolutely Muslim, right down to its geometric design and its coffee.

Muslim Cordoba was the height of civilized culture at the time due to its tolerant Muslim rulers, as every schoolboy knows. You can absolutely deny this, and of course you always will.

Never ever.

Quote:
Islamic Spain in Middle Ages no paradise for Christians, Jews, women

    Paul Monk
    The Australian
    12:00AM July 9, 2016

The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise: Muslims, Christians, and Jews Under Islamic Rule in Medieval Spain, by Dario Fernandez-Morera (ISI Books, 336pp, $59.95 hardback)

There is a widely held belief that in Spain, during the European Middle Ages, Islam, Christianity and Judaism co-existed peacefully and fruitfully under a tolerant and enlightened Islamic hegemony. Dario Fernandez-Morera, associate professor of Spanish and Portuguese at Northwestern University in the US, with a PhD from Harvard, has written a stunning book that upends this myth.

The myth itself has been a comforting and even inspiring story that has underpinned the so-called Toledo Principles regarding religious tolerance in our time. It has buttressed the belief that Islam was a higher civilisation than that of medieval Europe in the eighth to 12th centuries and that the destruction of this enlightened and sophisticated Andalusia should be lamented.

The great Spanish poet Federico Garcia Lorca, a century ago, saw it that way. US President Barack Obama and The Economist magazine have both very recently cited Muslim Andalusia as evidence that Islam has been a religion of peace and tolerance. In short, the myth of Andalusia has been a beacon of hope for working with Islam in today’s world with a common commitment to civilised norms.

This vision was spelled out in Maria Rosa Menocal’s The Ornament of the World: How Muslims, Jews and Christians Created a Culture of Tolerance in Medieval Spain (2002) and reinforced by David Levering Lewis’s God’s Crucible: Islam and the Making of Europe, 570-1215 (2008). But it has deep roots. Edward Gibbon, in his famous 18th-century history of the decline and fall of the Roman Empire, wrote in glowing terms of the 10th-century Umayyad caliphate in Spain as a beacon of enlightenment, learning and urban living, at a time when Europe was plunged in bigotry, ignorance and poverty.

As someone who has long taken this vision for granted, it came as a considerable shock to me to discover that the conventional wisdom is quite unfounded. In The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise, Fernandez-Morera systematically refutes the beguiling fable. The picture he draws is starkly different from the conventional one, troubling in what it reveals and compelling in its arguments.

If we are to satisfactorily resolve current disputes about Islamophobia and the future of Islam as a world religion, this book is required reading. International reviewers have greeted it as a desperately needed corrective to delusion and propaganda. That will invite pushback from those who either remain committed to the myth or believe it is too important a beacon to allow it to be extinguished.

However, Fernandez-Morera argues trenchantly that we must shake off the sense of the superiority of Islam to medieval European culture. He makes the point, for example, that, given Islam’s antipathy to graphic art and music, had Europe been Islamised in the 8th century, we would never have had Gregorian chant, orchestral music or opera. No Bach, Mozart, Beethoven or Verdi. No Caravaggio, Michelangelo or Titian. Ponder that, at least as a thought experiment.

He shows that the Muslim invaders of Spain in the 8th century did not arrive as a higher civilisation conquering Visigothic barbarians. They arrived as barbarians intruding on a strongly Romanised, Catholic and materially sophisticated culture. As other scholarship has shown, the Arabs in the 7th and 8th centuries were barbarian invaders every bit as much as the Germans or Bulgars in Europe. They plundered, enslaved and sacked from the Middle East across North Africa and eastwards to Central Asia and India. As the great Muslim historian Ibn Khaldun would put it in the 14th century, war in the name of religion was integral to Islam.

Secondly, Fernandez-Morera argues that Islam was not the vehicle through which classical Greek learning was preserved, as is so often claimed. It was chiefly Constantinople that archived and protected the patrimony of Greek antiquity, philosophical, medical and mathematical. The Arabs acquired all this through Greek Christian scholars translating the classics for them. Greeks from the east and Christians in the west later revived such learning for themselves. Meanwhile, the rise of Islam had disrupted the flow of trade and ideas between the Greek east and the Latin west, thus harming rather than fertilising European civilisation.


pt 1
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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #134 - May 22nd, 2017 at 4:40pm
 
pt 2....

Quote:
Even these background theses will strike many readers as controversial, but they are only the beginning. The real thrust of Fernandez-Morera’s critique of the myth of Andalusia is that Islam in Spain, far from setting a high bar of tolerance, was characterised by plunder, domination, the harsh application of sharia law, the persecution of Christians or Jews who openly avowed their non-Muslim beliefs, and the violent suppression of ‘‘heresies’’ and apostasy within the Muslim community.

He also points out that the Christian and Jewish communities tended towards dogmatism, enclosure against the other religions and the fierce persecution of both heretics and apostates. Andalusia has been extolled as a convivencia, he remarks, but in reality it was what he dubs a precaria co-existencia between the three monotheistic religions that eventually dis­integrated.

Chapter four, The Myth of Umayyad Tolerance: Inquisitions, Beheadings, Impalings and Crucifixions, and chapter five, Women in Islamic Spain: Female Circumcision, Stoning, Veils and Sexual Slavery, reveal what has been airbrushed from history. The Moroccan Muslim feminist Fatema Mernissi and others have laboured to argue that the sexual slaves in Andalusian harems were somehow ‘‘free’’ women. Fernandez-Morera draws attention to the considerably greater freedom of women in Christian Spain, by contrast, in terms of everyday outdoor work and access to political power.

The myth of Andalusia has been based on neglect of primary sources and selective adulation of worldly Muslim rulers, as if they were representative of the clerical ulema and Muslim masses. In fact, as Fernandez-Morera shows, both mullahs and masses tended to bigotry and anti-Semitism. There were anti-Semitic pogroms every bit as violent and irrational as those in Christian Europe. And many Christians were expelled from Muslim Spain.

Among the many shocks to my settled beliefs in reading this book was learning of the atrocities committed, publicly and privately, by Muslim rulers I had long seen as models of enlightened despotism, notably Abd al-Rahman I (731-788) and his descendant two centuries later Abd al-Rahman III. Both committed abhorrent deeds of torture and murder.

Far more shocking is Fernandez-Morera’s documentation of the harsh sharia law in Spain under the Maliki school of Islamic jurisprudence, something endorsed even by the celebrated 12th-century philosopher from Cordoba, Averroes (Ibn Rushd). It was neither pluralist nor ‘‘secular’’. It offers no model at all for what we might want or do now in civil society.

I learned things reading this book that I wish were not true, but the documentation is voluminous and compelling. There are occasional errors of fact and some surprising omissions — no discussion, for example, of the great library of Cordoba or of its other public amenities in the 10 century — but the overall impact is profound. His book will surely run into hostility, but Fernandez-Morera is a formidable scholar.

The classic works of Patricia Crone or John Wansbrough on the origins of Islam are the best comparison with what Fernandez-Morera has achieved. They demonstrated that the Koran as a canonical text dates from long after the traditional death of Mohammed and the hadiths (sayings attributed to Mohammed) were overwhelmingly just made up by storytellers long after he was gone.

In Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam, Crone argued that the traditional story of Mecca as a great spice-trading centre where Mohammed founded Islam from whole cloth (‘‘revelations’’) does not stand up to scrutiny. The actual history of early Islam and the traditional religious ­account of it diverge radically. Yet this extraordinary finding has never sunk in. It is, understandably, resisted strenuously by Muslim believers and an academic establishment that makes a living out of writing about that traditional story.

Meccan Trade and the Rise of Islam and books like it are vital works. The Myth of the Andalusian Paradise is one of these books. Rather than accepting conventional or politically correct views about either Islamic Spain or the rise of Islam ‘‘in the full light of history’’, read these probing works of historical scholarship.

We do need the ‘‘cultural secularism’’ that Menocal and others think they can point to in Muslim Andalusia. We do need to find a way for those who still adhere to the old religions to live in reasonable harmony. We should want a tolerant, cosmopolitan order here and abroad. What we cannot do any longer is take Muslim rule in Spain as our model for accomplishing that laudable goal. We need to invent something new. There is no Andalusian golden age to emulate.
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