Australian Politics Forum - ABC on Islam and domestic violence

Grendel

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #45 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 4:11pm

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 3:26pm:

moses wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 3:23pm:

Karnal wrote reply #33 - Today at 3:05pm

Quote:

Sure. Matthew 5: 17.

Not according to english vocabulary

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fulfill means: (1)to bring to a conclusion or completion.

O.T. Law has been successfully brought to a conclusion, it is finished, not applicable to today's Christian.

You need to concentrate, moses.

Is the OT a "religious text"?

Yes, of course it is.

freediver was wrong. So very, very wrong.

Yes it is a religious book... it is a Jewish religious history and speaks of the times before Christ...
Christianity come from the teachings of Christ which do not follow all the laws and teachings in the Old Testament. IT IS A NEW TESTAMENT...

Christ came to fulfill the prophecy in the Old Testament, he is not accepted by the Jews as the Messiah though. The Muslims do not accept him as the Son of God.

He does not preach war and killing or even retaliation. You cant say the same for the Quoran...
The same can be said of many moralistic ideas. Cheesy

Good luck with your complete religious ignorance Gweggy. You and the rest of the LW Progressive atheists preaching of that which they know not of. Cheesy

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greggerypeccary

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #46 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 4:33pm

Grendel wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 4:11pm:

greggerypeccary wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 3:26pm:

moses wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 3:23pm:

Karnal wrote reply #33 - Today at 3:05pm

Quote:

Sure. Matthew 5: 17.

Not according to english vocabulary

Mathew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Fulfill means: (1)to bring to a conclusion or completion.

O.T. Law has been successfully brought to a conclusion, it is finished, not applicable to today's Christian.

You need to concentrate, moses.

Is the OT a "religious text"?

Yes, of course it is.

freediver was wrong. So very, very wrong.

Yes it is a religious book... it is a Jewish religious history and speaks of the times before Christ...
Christianity come from the teachings of Christ which do not follow all the laws and teachings in the Old Testament. IT IS A NEW TESTAMENT...

Christ came to fulfill the prophecy in the Old Testament, he is not accepted by the Jews as the Messiah though. The Muslims do not accept him as the Son of God.

He does not preach war and killing or even retaliation. You cant say the same for the Quoran...
The same can be said of many moralistic ideas. Cheesy

Good luck with your complete religious ignorance Gweggy. You and the rest of the LW Progressive atheists preaching of that which they know not of. Cheesy

You need to concentrate a little harder.

Freediver said: "I don't think
any
religious text actually encourages violence to the extent that Islam does."

He was wrong, and that has been proven.

Which part of that don't you understand?

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moses

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #47 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 4:44pm

mothra wrote

Quote:

fulfil
fʊlˈfɪl/Submit
verb
verb: fulfill
1.
achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
"he wouldn't be able to fulfil his ambition to visit Naples"
synonyms: succeed in, attain, realize, consummate, satisfy, manage, bring off, bring about, carry off, carry out, carry through, bring to fruition, deliver; More
2.
carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
"some officials were dismissed because they could not fulfil their duties"

The Christian doctrine is that Christ fulfilled the law, brought it to a successful conclusion.

This is verified in the verses which state various precepts of: the law was until John, no man is justified by the law etc.

Also the last words Christ spoke as he died on the cross were "It is finished".

You will never be able to tell a Christian that he / she is bound by the law.

They are not and they have moved on with the times.

I know why muslims and their apologists always try this line of attack on Christianity.

muslims are stuck with the stupidity of: the qur'an is infallible and unchangeable, so they are bound to the slaughter and destruction forever, unable to reject it or islam dies.

So instead of acknowledging that Judaism and Christianity have progressed, the ant- Christian brigade always use the fallacious tactic of promoting Judaism and Christianity as being no better than islam.

A patent lie on their part.

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moses

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #48 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 4:46pm

gandalf wrote

Quote:

So does the n.t. condemn all the slaughtering in the o.t.?

Would you say this is an accurate depiction of both testaments?:

- o.t. - slaughter, rape, pillage, conquer, stone your women
- n.t. - nah, just kidding!

The O.T. is many things: Ancient man's depiction of how things began, Mosaic law, Covenant between God and the Hebrews, various chronicles of ancient Jewish life etc. It is a book authored in ancient barbaric times by men, as such it portrays punishments in terms that were acceptable in those days. (thankfully most Jews today do not feel bound by the barbarity of ancient law they have moved on with the times)

The N.T. is a a collection of gospels depicting the teachings of Christ. It clearly states the mosaic law was completed and man is now justified by faith not the law.

This is where they have it over islam, you are bound by the ridiculous words of muhammad that the qur'an is perfect and can never be changed.

You are stuck with the slaughter and destruction, you can not reject it or islam collapses.

That is the reason muslims and their apologists desperately try to bond Judaism and Christianity to barbaric inhumanities.

This is plainly untrue, they both have moved on.

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mothra

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #49 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:13pm

moses wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 4:44pm:

mothra wrote

Quote:

fulfil
fʊlˈfɪl/Submit
verb
verb: fulfill
1.
achieve or realize (something desired, promised, or predicted).
"he wouldn't be able to fulfil his ambition to visit Naples"
synonyms: succeed in, attain, realize, consummate, satisfy, manage, bring off, bring about, carry off, carry out, carry through, bring to fruition, deliver; More
2.
carry out (a duty or role) as required, promised, or expected.
"some officials were dismissed because they could not fulfil their duties"

The Christian doctrine is that Christ fulfilled the law, brought it to a successful conclusion.

This is verified in the verses which state various precepts of: the law was until John, no man is justified by the law etc.

Also the last words Christ spoke as he died on the cross were "It is finished".

You will never be able to tell a Christian that he / she is bound by the law.

They are not and they have moved on with the times.

I know why muslims and their apologists always try this line of attack on Christianity.

muslims are stuck with the stupidity of: the qur'an is infallible and unchangeable, so they are bound to the slaughter and destruction forever, unable to reject it or islam dies.

So instead of acknowledging that Judaism and Christianity have progressed, the ant- Christian brigade always use the fallacious tactic of promoting Judaism and Christianity as being no better than islam.

A patent lie on their part.

So, not taking the wording literally then.

Thanks for the confirmation.

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Auggie

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #50 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:42pm

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2017 at 8:09pm:

I don't think any religious text actually encourages violence to the extent that Islam does.

Read the Torah; some parts of it are worse than the Quran.

Most monotheistic religions have some degree of violence/hatred in them. We're not dealing with perfect beings here.

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Aussie

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #51 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:49pm

Auggie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:42pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2017 at 8:09pm:

I don't think any religious text actually encourages violence to the extent that Islam does.

Read the Torah; some parts of it are worse than the Quran.

Most monotheistic religions have some degree of violence/hatred in them. We're not dealing with perfect beings here.

Post some of it so we can make Effendi defend it, please, Caesar Augustus.

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Auggie

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #52 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 6:02pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:49pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:42pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2017 at 8:09pm:

I don't think any religious text actually encourages violence to the extent that Islam does.

Read the Torah; some parts of it are worse than the Quran.

Most monotheistic religions have some degree of violence/hatred in them. We're not dealing with perfect beings here.

Post some of it so we can make Effendi defend it, please, Caesar Augustus.

Bear with me for a moment, Aussie, I'm trying to find it. I do specifically remember there being calls to kill people. For now, here is one about the 'greatest of the prophets: Moses'.

Numbers 31:13 - 18: "And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves." - i.e. 'women-children as sex slaves.'

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Auggie

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #53 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 6:14pm

Leviticus 24:15 “Then you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 And whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the Lord, he shall be put to death."

Deuteronomy 13:6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."

"Samuel 1:17-19 "So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the Lord?”

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence Reply #54 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 6:42pm Thank goodness no one was stupid enough to push it as infallible and never to be changed.
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greggerypeccary

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #55 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 6:55pm

Aussie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:49pm:

Auggie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 5:42pm:

freediver wrote on Apr 26^th, 2017 at 8:09pm:

I don't think any religious text actually encourages violence to the extent that Islam does.

Read the Torah; some parts of it are worse than the Quran.

Most monotheistic religions have some degree of violence/hatred in them. We're not dealing with perfect beings here.

Post some of it so we can make Effendi defend it, please, Caesar Augustus.

If he doesn't defend it, he'll at least answer all our questions.

He's good like that.

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Frank

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #56 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 7:04pm

Auggie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 6:14pm:

Leviticus 24:15 “Then you shall speak to the children of Israel, saying: ‘Whoever curses his God shall bear his sin. 16 And whoever blasphemes the name of the Lord shall surely be put to death. All the congregation shall certainly stone him, the stranger as well as him who is born in the land. When he blasphemes the name of the Lord, he shall be put to death."

Deuteronomy 13:6 “If your brother, the son of your mother, your son or your daughter, the wife of your bosom, or your friend who is as your own soul, secretly entices you, saying, ‘Let us go and serve other gods,’ which you have not known, neither you nor your fathers, 7 of the gods of the people which are all around you, near to you or far off from you, from one end of the earth to the other end of the earth, 8 you shall not consent to him or listen to him, nor shall your eye pity him, nor shall you spare him or conceal him; 9 but you shall surely kill him; your hand shall be first against him to put him to death, and afterward the hand of all the people. 10 And you shall stone him with stones until he dies, because he sought to entice you away from the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, from the house of bondage. 11 So all Israel shall hear and fear, and not again do such wickedness as this among you."

"Samuel 1:17-19 "So Samuel said, “When you were little in your own eyes, were you not head of the tribes of Israel? And did not the Lord anoint you king over Israel? 18 Now the Lord sent you on a mission, and said, ‘Go, and utterly destroy the sinners, the Amalekites, and fight against them until they are consumed.’ 19 Why then did you not obey the voice of the Lord? Why did you swoop down on the spoil, and do evil in the sight of the Lord?”

Soooo...... when was the last stoning by Jews for contravening these verses???

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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence Reply #57 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 8:13pm So, it's not the Quran, then is it? As both Yadda and Effendi claim, but rather the fact that people hold those beliefs. This shows us that Islam can reform.
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mothra Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 35692 Gender:	Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence Reply #58 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 8:19pm Auggie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 8:13pm: So, it's not the Quran, then is it? As both Yadda and Effendi claim, but rather the fact that people hold those beliefs. This shows us that Islam can reform. And that indeed, the vast majority of Muslims interpret the Quran peacefully.
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Frank

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Re: ABC on Islam and domestic violence
Reply #59 - Apr 27^th, 2017 at 8:28pm

Auggie wrote on Apr 27^th, 2017 at 8:13pm:

So, it's not the Quran, then is it? As both Yadda and Effendi claim, but rather the fact that people hold those beliefs.

This shows us that Islam can reform.

Why doesn't it then? Because apostasy is deadly, that's why. And it's deadly because the Koran says so. ANd because millions of Muslims around the world do believe that the Koran is the final, unalterable and eternal word of god.
They kill people because they DO believe the Koran.

Soooo... when was the last Jewish stoning? How and when did the Jews, even the most orthodox, stop following the literal words of the Torah? You asserted the Torah is worse, yet there are no Jews toning anyone.

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