Australian Politics Forum - 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World

freediver

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #60 - May 7^th, 2017 at 8:25am

capitosinora wrote on May 5^th, 2017 at 9:43am:

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2017 at 7:12pm:

capitosinora wrote on May 3^rd, 2017 at 8:21pm:

The Evil Empire: 101 Ways That England Ruined the World

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/The_Evil_Empire_Cover.jpg/3...

In the work the author argues that many of the world's problems were caused by the British Empire and also criticises British culture. The book explanes thru the historical facts how the British Empire was evil, and responsible for the Irish famine, the atrocities committed by the Black and Tans during the Irish War of Independence, Racism, Invention of African slavery, Genocides around the world, the Scramble for Africa, the Iraq War, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Durand Line and the Revengs of the Afghan Royal Family and their Rare Earth Elements, global warming, world poverty, the Great Plague, Islamofascism, the 19th century First and Second Opium Wars with China, the First World War and the Vietnam War. Other events the book places blame on the British Empire for include the Second World War, the fathering of the United States and the drug trade. The book argues that all of these incidents had a negative impact on the world.
Other arguments made in the book involve the popularity of homosexuality among the British nobility that the King James Bible was a deliberate act of heresy, and that the Piltdown Man hoax was a deliberate attempt by British academia to prove that they were a superior race.
The book also gives insight in the Victorian educational system called "Victorian Fascism", that like Hitler, prepared the whole nation, "Superior British Race", to conquer the world.

What the British Empire did was pretty much unique in human history. It ceded it's empire without being forced to by being over-run, leading to a long term collapse.
It also exported liberal democracy to much of the world.

Maybe you wanted to say that British invented and exported liberal hypocrisy.
Or "Democracy"with never democratically elected head of state (Monarch, dictator.) who has constitutional right to dismiss democratically elected prime minister. Do you remember what happened to Gough Whitlam?.
It looks you don't have a clue what a democracy is:

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, Dēmokratía "rule of the people")
Monarchy (Greek: μονάρχης, Monárkhēs "rule of elite")

They exported democracy and freedom. Are you trying to blame the Queen for you losing the referendum?

Quote:

You forget, the British and other Imperialists destroyed the native power structures when they took over the regions they governed.

Is that a bad thing? The power structures in central Africa were all about capturing slaves to sell. For the most part they replaced some kind of dictatorship with democracy.

Quote:

The result was invariably more than 30 years of mismanagement. Made up of disparate tribes and societies, most of which hated one another they would often lapse into civil or international conflict. Famines were common as were over and under production of goods. Were the British and other Imperial powers to blame? In party. After all, they trained the local intelligentsia to govern first in their names and then in their own.

WTF are you on about?

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Not necessarily so. Native power structures consisted of stable monarchies, tribal systems, etc.

Are you a fan of dictatorship Brian? Or do you just like the fact that the camel trains ran on time?

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Most were as good as Europe had experienced during the Medieval period.

How lovely.

Quote:

They had their faults, without a doubt but they offered stability and of course, continuity.

Would you describe the absence of freedom and democracy as a fault? Or are you not allowed to criticise other nations or religions?

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The Europeans uprooted all that and overturned it. They changed the agriculture and settlement patterns to the detriment of the locals. See Diamonds, "Guns, Germs and Steel" to see what I mean.

I have read that book, but it lends no insight into your blathering. It merely explains why they were able to do what they did.

Quote:

Intertribal conflict was relatively rare before the arrival of the Europeans, UnSubRocky, primarily because the societies were divided along tribal lines.

You have no clue Brian.

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« Last Edit: May 7^th, 2017 at 8:38am by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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capitosinora

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #61 - May 8^th, 2017 at 11:49am

Brian Ross wrote on May 6^th, 2017 at 11:26pm:

UnSubRocky wrote on May 5^th, 2017 at 10:53pm:

Brian Ross wrote on May 5^th, 2017 at 6:07pm:

You forget, the British and other Imperialists destroyed the native power structures when they took over the regions they governed. They replaced them with faux versions of their own power structure. Then they cleared out when being an Empire became too embarrassing. The result was invariably more than 30 years of mismanagement. Made up of disparate tribes and societies, most of which hated one another they would often lapse into civil or international conflict. Famines were common as were over and under production of goods. Were the British and other Imperial powers to blame? In party. After all, they trained the local intelligentsia to govern first in their names and then in their own. However, as you point out, the local intelligentsia had to take responsibility for their own mismanagement and they have. After initial periods of instability, most former colonial possessions have settled down to become reasonably well governed.

Yeah... A native power structure. One where they kill each other off to get the dominant roles in their societies.

Not necessarily so. Native power structures consisted of stable monarchies, tribal systems, etc. Most were as good as Europe had experienced during the Medieval period. They had their faults, without a doubt but they offered stability and of course, continuity. The Europeans uprooted all that and overturned it. They changed the agriculture and settlement patterns to the detriment of the locals. See Diamonds, "Guns, Germs and Steel" to see what I mean.

Quote:

I would not call the replacement structures as fakes. What the British got the natives to do was to set up a system of economic structure, via the establishment of new industries that follow the old. I have a book on this, and I want to read it all before I make further comment.

When was it written and by whom?

Quote:

And the civil wars erupting with the British colonial powers re-mapping borders is not something we can blame the British. Inter-tribal conflict had been occurring between tribes since long before the British came along. We could probably credit the British for trying to resolve centuries-long conflicts.

Intertribal conflict was relatively rare before the arrival of the Europeans, UnSubRocky, primarily because the societies were divided along tribal lines. When the Europeans arrived, the cut across the traditional tribal boundaries and imposed their own colonial ones and as a consequence you have conflict arising.

Quote:

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30 years BTW is but a blink of an eye in the scale of world history. It is just one generation on human time scales. Roll Eyes

Well, I am only 38 years old, and I don't consider the last 30 years a blink of an eye. If I can grow up to become a 38-year-old who has been constructive for the last 25 years, so can third world societies get themselves out of their self-inflicted mess that they have had for themselves. All British-derived problems should have been resolved in the first few years of their independence.

Sorry, you are but a youngster. 30 years is but one generation. Most changes to societies before the 20th century took multiple generations to occur. That you can be constructive in 38 years is all well and good. Societies grappling with all the problems that they had been presented with by colonialism take longer. Roll Eyes

The fact is that Britain has always been one isolated Island with unique culture (you can call it anti-culture) that has little to do with civilised Europe.
By the way the genocide on Australian aborigines was specifically done by British and not by Europeans.

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capitosinora

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #62 - May 8^th, 2017 at 12:01pm

freediver wrote on May 7^th, 2017 at 8:25am:

capitosinora wrote on May 5^th, 2017 at 9:43am:

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2017 at 7:12pm:

capitosinora wrote on May 3^rd, 2017 at 8:21pm:

The Evil Empire: 101 Ways That England Ruined the World

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/The_Evil_Empire_Cover.jpg/3...

In the work the author argues that many of the world's problems were caused by the British Empire and also criticises British culture. The book explanes thru the historical facts how the British Empire was evil, and responsible for the Irish famine, the atrocities committed by the Black and Tans during the Irish War of Independence, Racism, Invention of African slavery, Genocides around the world, the Scramble for Africa, the Iraq War, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Durand Line and the Revengs of the Afghan Royal Family and their Rare Earth Elements, global warming, world poverty, the Great Plague, Islamofascism, the 19th century First and Second Opium Wars with China, the First World War and the Vietnam War. Other events the book places blame on the British Empire for include the Second World War, the fathering of the United States and the drug trade. The book argues that all of these incidents had a negative impact on the world.
Other arguments made in the book involve the popularity of homosexuality among the British nobility that the King James Bible was a deliberate act of heresy, and that the Piltdown Man hoax was a deliberate attempt by British academia to prove that they were a superior race.
The book also gives insight in the Victorian educational system called "Victorian Fascism", that like Hitler, prepared the whole nation, "Superior British Race", to conquer the world.

What the British Empire did was pretty much unique in human history. It ceded it's empire without being forced to by being over-run, leading to a long term collapse.
It also exported liberal democracy to much of the world.

Maybe you wanted to say that British invented and exported liberal hypocrisy.
Or "Democracy"with never democratically elected head of state (Monarch, dictator.) who has constitutional right to dismiss democratically elected prime minister. Do you remember what happened to Gough Whitlam?.
It looks you don't have a clue what a democracy is:

Democracy (Greek: δημοκρατία, Dēmokratía "rule of the people")
Monarchy (Greek: μονάρχης, Monárkhēs "rule of elite")

They exported democracy and freedom. Are you trying to blame the Queen for you losing the referendum?

It has nothing to do with your referendum. The fact is that Monarchy and Democracy is not the same so if you try to export British "democracy' you could be nothing else but cynical hypocrite.
I suggest you to read Plato's 'Republic".
Ah yes someone has said that ignorance and arrogance are twins who like to be together.

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GOD BLESS AMERICA

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48832 At my desk.	Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World Reply #63 - May 8^th, 2017 at 7:49pm Yes I realise they are not the same. That is why we have two different words for them. Do you think Australia is a democracy?
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Auggie

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #64 - May 8^th, 2017 at 9:07pm

For those ignorant persons who criticize the British Empire?

1) What was the alternative to modernity? If there was any, which country would have been the better alternative? The only other nation that came close was France, but they lost the war.

2) The Westminster system of government (which is distinct from parliamentary democracy) is actually the best kind of government in the world. Almost all former British colonies that transitioned to an American-style presidential system all became dictatorships, which would have been impossible under a Constitutional Monarchy. The only countries that didn't were Belize, Jamaica, Malaysia, etc. - all of which countries have had stable governments and no instances of a military dictatorship (of course, they're not perfect, but they're much better off than say Nigeria or Kenya).

3) Britain promoted pluralism and tolerance of different cultures and religions.

4) British institutions have led to unprecedented prosperity and freedom for those who have adopted them.

5) Britain abolished slavery by passing an Act of Parliament.

6) Slaves in the American South who escaped to Canada were shocked at the irony of a so-called 'tyrannical' monarchy that granted them equal rights over a republic.

Shall I continue?

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The Progressive President

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freediver Gold Member Offline www.ozpolitic.com Posts: 48832 At my desk.	Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World Reply #65 - May 8^th, 2017 at 9:38pm The footprint of the French Empire on Western Europe are the wealthy, liberal democracies. France did for Europe what the British did for the new world.
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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World Reply #66 - May 8^th, 2017 at 9:43pm freediver wrote on May 8^th, 2017 at 9:38pm: The footprint of the French Empire on Western Europe are the wealthy, liberal democracies. France did for Europe what the British did for the new world. Mmm, that's a good characterization.
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rhino Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 17179 Gender:	Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World Reply #67 - May 8^th, 2017 at 10:17pm capitosinora wrote on May 8^th, 2017 at 11:49am: By the way the genocide on Australian aborigines was specifically done by British and not by Europeans.[/b] You are misinformed, there was no Aboriginal genocide nor was there any attempt to do so.
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greggerypeccary Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 136276 Gender:	Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World Reply #68 - May 8^th, 2017 at 10:24pm rhino wrote on May 8^th, 2017 at 10:17pm: capitosinora wrote on May 8^th, 2017 at 11:49am: By the way the genocide on Australian aborigines was specifically done by British and not by Europeans.[/b] You are misinformed, there was no Aboriginal genocide nor was there any attempt to do so.
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AiA

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #69 - May 9^th, 2017 at 7:28am

There is no alternative to the past, none. There is no alternative to what is happening right this instant. Alternatives only exist in the future.

Something that often goes unnoticed about Gandhi and the British Empire: had the man gone up against Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Saddam Hussein, Kim Jong Un, a Banana Republic, garden variety tin-pot dictator or several other forms of government, he would have ended up dead. The British, despite whatever faults they have/had tried to do the right thing, tried to follow the rule of law and understood the importance of fair play, even when they failed completely.

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« Last Edit: May 9^th, 2017 at 9:17am by AiA »

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hawil

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #70 - May 9^th, 2017 at 12:25pm

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2017 at 7:12pm:

capitosinora wrote on May 3^rd, 2017 at 8:21pm:

The Evil Empire: 101 Ways That England Ruined the World

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/The_Evil_Empire_Cover.jpg/3...

In the work the author argues that many of the world's problems were caused by the British Empire and also criticises British culture. The book explanes thru the historical facts how the British Empire was evil, and responsible for the Irish famine, the atrocities committed by the Black and Tans during the Irish War of Independence, Racism, Invention of African slavery, Genocides around the world, the Scramble for Africa, the Iraq War, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Durand Line and the Revengs of the Afghan Royal Family and their Rare Earth Elements, global warming, world poverty, the Great Plague, Islamofascism, the 19th century First and Second Opium Wars with China, the First World War and the Vietnam War. Other events the book places blame on the British Empire for include the Second World War, the fathering of the United States and the drug trade. The book argues that all of these incidents had a negative impact on the world.
Other arguments made in the book involve the popularity of homosexuality among the British nobility that the King James Bible was a deliberate act of heresy, and that the Piltdown Man hoax was a deliberate attempt by British academia to prove that they were a superior race.
The book also gives insight in the Victorian educational system called "Victorian Fascism", that like Hitler, prepared the whole nation, "Superior British Race", to conquer the world.

What the British Empire did was pretty much unique in human history. It ceded it's empire without being forced to by being over-run, leading to a long term collapse. It also exported liberal democracy to much of the world.

They may have exported democracy, but that was only in theory, because most of the British I ever met only believe in democratic principle, if they can be the boss, no matter if they are cleverer or more able, just because they think, they are superior by being British.
The best Colonizers, as far I read were still the Romans, because they innovated a lot in the countries they occupied, including England.
In the end all Colonizers are resented by the people subjugated, because they are being exploited.
But rule Brittania was taken from the British by America without another war against the British, but through World War 1 and 2, and the British are still not over it.
As far as I,am concerned, it doesn't matter if you are from a so-called superior country or race, but what you are as a person and what you achieve in life, although where one is born and lives, has a big impact on it.

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Brian Ross

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #71 - May 9^th, 2017 at 6:18pm

rhino wrote on May 8^th, 2017 at 10:17pm:

capitosinora wrote on May 8^th, 2017 at 11:49am:

By the way the genocide on Australian aborigines was specifically done by British and not by Europeans.[/b]

You are misinformed, there was no Aboriginal genocide nor was there any attempt to do so.

The UN Convention on Genocide, defines Genocide as being:

Quote:

...any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such:

      (a) Killing members of the group;
      (b) Causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;
      (c) Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;
      (d) Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;
      (e) Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

— Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide

Definition e. has definitely occurred in Australia against Indigenous Australians. Indigenous children were forcibly transferred from one group to another group, without the permission of the childrens' parents.

Wake up to yourself, Rhino, you are engaged in what the UN Convention defines as:

Quote:

(a) Genocide;
(b) Conspiracy to commit genocide;
(c) Direct and public incitement to commit genocide;
(d) Attempt to commit genocide;
(e) Complicity in genocide.

Section e. Complicity in genocide. Tsk, tsk. You are denying the historical record of the Stolen Generations. Roll Eyes

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Someone said we could not judge a person's Aboriginality on their skin colour. Why isn't that applied in the matter of Pascoe? Tsk, tsk, tsk... Roll Eyes

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Auggie

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #72 - May 9^th, 2017 at 8:16pm

The genocide of the indigenous peoples of Australia occurred under Australian control, mainly after Federation, not under the hands of the British. We often like to shift the blame to Britain, but we're actually the ones to blame. It was the Commonwealth/States which treated the indigenous peoples poorly, not the British.

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freediver

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #73 - May 9^th, 2017 at 9:08pm

hawil wrote on May 9^th, 2017 at 12:25pm:

freediver wrote on May 4^th, 2017 at 7:12pm:

capitosinora wrote on May 3^rd, 2017 at 8:21pm:

The Evil Empire: 101 Ways That England Ruined the World

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/8/86/The_Evil_Empire_Cover.jpg/3...

In the work the author argues that many of the world's problems were caused by the British Empire and also criticises British culture. The book explanes thru the historical facts how the British Empire was evil, and responsible for the Irish famine, the atrocities committed by the Black and Tans during the Irish War of Independence, Racism, Invention of African slavery, Genocides around the world, the Scramble for Africa, the Iraq War, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Durand Line and the Revengs of the Afghan Royal Family and their Rare Earth Elements, global warming, world poverty, the Great Plague, Islamofascism, the 19th century First and Second Opium Wars with China, the First World War and the Vietnam War. Other events the book places blame on the British Empire for include the Second World War, the fathering of the United States and the drug trade. The book argues that all of these incidents had a negative impact on the world.
Other arguments made in the book involve the popularity of homosexuality among the British nobility that the King James Bible was a deliberate act of heresy, and that the Piltdown Man hoax was a deliberate attempt by British academia to prove that they were a superior race.
The book also gives insight in the Victorian educational system called "Victorian Fascism", that like Hitler, prepared the whole nation, "Superior British Race", to conquer the world.

What the British Empire did was pretty much unique in human history. It ceded it's empire without being forced to by being over-run, leading to a long term collapse. It also exported liberal democracy to much of the world.

They may have exported democracy, but that was only in theory, because most of the British I ever met only believe in democratic principle, if they can be the boss, no matter if they are cleverer or more able, just because they think, they are superior by being British.
The best Colonizers, as far I read were still the Romans, because they innovated a lot in the countries they occupied, including England.
In the end all Colonizers are resented by the people subjugated, because they are being exploited.
But rule Brittania was taken from the British by America without another war against the British, but through World War 1 and 2, and the British are still not over it.
As far as I,am concerned, it doesn't matter if you are from a so-called superior country or race, but what you are as a person and what you achieve in life, although where one is born and lives, has a big impact on it.

It was the Romans who planted the seeds of liberal democracy in western Europe. It is no coincidence that Rome occupied and shaped Britain and France, effectively starting with a blank slate as far as settled civilisation goes. But they never subdued the Germans. Nearly two thousand years later, it was the French bringing liberty and democracy to Germany and the rest of Europe, not once, but three times.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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rhino

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Re: 101 Ways That Evil British empire Ruined the World
Reply #74 - May 9^th, 2017 at 10:08pm

Brian Ross wrote on May 9^th, 2017 at 6:18pm:

Indigenous children were forcibly transferred from one group to another group, without the permission of the childrens' parents.

didnt happen. The only children removed were done so out of regard for the childrens welfare, even then, full blood children were not removed. It was illegal to do so. The public record shows clearly the intent which was altruistic. There was no genocide or any attempt at such, the public record at the time shows this clearly.

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