Australian Politics Forum - Caesar's version of Islam

Jasin Gold Member Offline Posts: 50824 Gender:	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #15 - May 24^th, 2017 at 8:32pm The two above POSTS were edited for 'sanity' reasons.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97442	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #16 - May 24^th, 2017 at 9:21pm Thanks for a good thread, FD. Thanks for your own take on a religious text, Augie. It's good to read different views and opinions. This is what saves us from fundamentalism.
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Auggie Gold Member Offline The Bull Moose Posts: 8571	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #17 - May 24^th, 2017 at 9:42pm Karnal wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 9:21pm: Thanks for a good thread, FD. Thanks for your own take on a religious text, Augie. It's good to read different views and opinions. This is what saves us from fundamentalism. Thank you, Karnal.
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Karnal

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #18 - May 24^th, 2017 at 10:03pm

Auggie wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 9:42pm:

Karnal wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 9:21pm:

Thanks for a good thread, FD. Thanks for your own take on a religious text, Augie.

It's good to read different views and opinions. This is what saves us from fundamentalism.

Thank you, Karnal.

Thank FD, Augie. It's good to see him being curious about ideas.

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Grendel

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #19 - May 25^th, 2017 at 9:31am

Auggie wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 5:42pm:

Grendel wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 1:12pm:

Muhammad is much more than a mere messenger, even if you just look at him historically. You seem to want to ignore that fact

He wasn't 'more than a messenger' in the earliest Surahs of the Quran; he only become that later.

Regarding Moses, he wasn't just a mere 'warner' he was a leader who led people out of the Egypt. Muhammad's role was always just to be a 'warner' nothing more. That tradition changed later on. But that wasn't his purpose.

Grendel wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 1:12pm:

You also avoided the point I made re your version of Islam...

Which was what exactly?

Good grief.... so according to you he wasn't .... but now he is? Grin

So he is right? Cheesy

I suggest you reread what I wrote and find out exactly what I said... hope I wasn't too subtle for you, I'm sure everyone else gets it though Roll Eyes

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Grendel

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #20 - May 25^th, 2017 at 9:33am

Auggie wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 5:45pm:

moses wrote on May 24^th, 2017 at 3:58pm:

Quote:

individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary.

Gobble gobble gobble, turkey speak for: We can't condemn doctrinal hate torture and murder, it's infallible and can't be changed, instead we say it doesn't really mean what it says, it's all in the interpretation.

Moses, interpretation includes ignoring verses. I don't re-interpret the violent verses, I just ignore them.

Even if Islam preaches hate and intolerance, there's no reason why a person just can't ignore those verses.

And by the way, I absolutely condemn all acts of violence against anyone, irrespective of the reasons. I'm so much of a pacifist that I don't even consider poverty as a reason for a violence.

LOL, you ignore/disobey the stuff you disagree with... the unalterable word of God... Grin

I think you fail as a Good Muslim then.
I have already commented on your approach Aggie the Apostate. Roll Eyes

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freediver

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #21 - May 25^th, 2017 at 10:52am

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:32pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

So how would this version of Islam differ from the conventional one?

It doesn't. The Quran claims that it is a recitation of God. In the early verses of the Quran, Muhammad is seen only as a WARNER who comes to WARN people about the punishment they would receive in Hell. It doesn't call for people to slay to infidels: that is a later tradition.

It is clear if you read the Quran in revelation order that the tradition of Islam has changed (as with other religions too). One only needs to note the changes in prose to realize this.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

Does anyone share your interpretation?

Isn't that the point: as Waleed Aly said, that Islam is anarchic (at least in the Sunni tradition); individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

And how do you explain the message being entrusted to someone who went on to behave as Muhammad did?

The 'behaviour' of Muhammad is an interesting notion: at first, the behaviour of the Prophet didn't matter; the Quran wasn't a 'New Testament' in the Christian sense; it was the Word of Quran. For some reason, the 'testimonials of the actions' of Muhammad become canonical; but this is fundamentally against the early traditions of Islam. In terms of his behaviour, I don't care or pay attention to how Muhammad behaved; I only care what 'God says....'

So you discard half of the Koran - the second half, which is apparently the more violent bit. But this doesn't change anything about Islam? Or are you saying it is already conventional to discard half of it?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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moses

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #22 - May 25^th, 2017 at 2:23pm

AugCaesarustus wrote: Reply #12 - Yesterday at 5:45pm

Quote:

Moses, interpretation includes ignoring verses. I don't re-interpret the violent verses, I just ignore them.

Even if Islam preaches hate and intolerance, there's no reason why a person just can't ignore those verses.

And by the way, I absolutely condemn all acts of violence against anyone, irrespective of the reasons. I'm so much of a pacifist that I don't even consider poverty as a reason for a violence.

Just ignore the verses which preach hate, intolerance and mass murder?

The reson for this logic is?

Because muslims and their apologists know it would destroy islam, if an honest inquiry into their doctrine which espouses the hate, torture and mass murder so alluring to the fundamentalists like isis et al were held.

So today 2017 leftards and muslims prefer the islamic inspired bloodshed death and destruction to an honest review of the evil putrescence in the teachings of muhammad, the commands of allah and the verses of the qur'an.

Just how long the world puts up with this, remains to be seen.

However I do believe that eventually it will turn on the muslims and their leftard apologists.

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Karnal

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #23 - May 25^th, 2017 at 3:30pm

freediver wrote on May 25^th, 2017 at 10:52am:

Auggie wrote on May 23^rd, 2017 at 5:32pm:

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

So how would this version of Islam differ from the conventional one?

It doesn't. The Quran claims that it is a recitation of God. In the early verses of the Quran, Muhammad is seen only as a WARNER who comes to WARN people about the punishment they would receive in Hell. It doesn't call for people to slay to infidels: that is a later tradition.

It is clear if you read the Quran in revelation order that the tradition of Islam has changed (as with other religions too). One only needs to note the changes in prose to realize this.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

Does anyone share your interpretation?

Isn't that the point: as Waleed Aly said, that Islam is anarchic (at least in the Sunni tradition); individuals are free to interpret the Quran as they deem necessary.

freediver wrote on May 20^th, 2017 at 9:56pm:

And how do you explain the message being entrusted to someone who went on to behave as Muhammad did?

The 'behaviour' of Muhammad is an interesting notion: at first, the behaviour of the Prophet didn't matter; the Quran wasn't a 'New Testament' in the Christian sense; it was the Word of Quran. For some reason, the 'testimonials of the actions' of Muhammad become canonical; but this is fundamentally against the early traditions of Islam. In terms of his behaviour, I don't care or pay attention to how Muhammad behaved; I only care what 'God says....'

So you discard half of the Koran - the second half, which is apparently the more violent bit. But this doesn't change anything about Islam? Or are you saying it is already conventional to discard half of it?

I don't think Augie's talking about "Islam", FD. He's talking about reading.

You?

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Karnal

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #24 - May 25^th, 2017 at 3:33pm

moses wrote on May 25^th, 2017 at 2:23pm:

AugCaesarustus wrote: Reply #12 - Yesterday at 5:45pm

Quote:

Moses, interpretation includes ignoring verses. I don't re-interpret the violent verses, I just ignore them.

Even if Islam preaches hate and intolerance, there's no reason why a person just can't ignore those verses.

And by the way, I absolutely condemn all acts of violence against anyone, irrespective of the reasons. I'm so much of a pacifist that I don't even consider poverty as a reason for a violence.

Just ignore the verses which preach hate, intolerance and mass murder?

Why not? You ignore the parts of the Bible that do the same, Moses.

Strangely, you take your name from a prophet that preached just that.

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #25 - May 25^th, 2017 at 3:41pm Quote: Why not? You ignore the parts of the Bible that do the same, Moses. Good golly miss molly they are not ignored. Superseded is the word you're looking for.
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Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 97442	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #26 - May 25^th, 2017 at 3:49pm moses wrote on May 25^th, 2017 at 3:41pm: Quote: Why not? You ignore the parts of the Bible that do the same, Moses. Good golly miss molly they are not ignored. Superseded is the word you're looking for. Are you saying Jews follow the New Testament? Please explain.
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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #27 - May 25^th, 2017 at 4:05pm Quote: Why not? You ignore the parts of the Bible that do the same, Moses. & Are you saying Jews follow the New Testament? Well spit three times and call me allah, now I'm a Jew?
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Karnal

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Re: Caesar's version of Islam
Reply #28 - May 25^th, 2017 at 5:05pm

moses wrote on May 25^th, 2017 at 4:05pm:

Quote:

Why not? You ignore the parts of the Bible that do the same, Moses.

&

Are you saying Jews follow the New Testament?

Well spit three times and call me allah, now I'm a Jew?

You've got the name of a Jewish prophet. If you're not promoting the Old Testament, why?

But I'm curious. Do you think Jews follow the New Testament?

Please explain.

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moses Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 6353	Re: Caesar's version of Islam Reply #29 - May 25^th, 2017 at 5:30pm Quote: But I'm curious. Do you think Jews follow the New Testament? Most civilized people seem to have social values similar to those taught by Christ.
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