See also:

Islam vs Judaism
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1416607208

Islam vs Christianity
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1416819918

Christianity vs Judaism vs Islam (by AugCaesarustus - more of the spiritual side of things)
http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1489289965

This topic seems to be taking over every thread lately. Karnal is asking why Jews are nicer people than Muslims despite the old testament being less nice than the Koran. Bobby is stuck on contradictions between the new testament and the old testament, after realising he does not actually understand what the new testament says about the old testament. Greg and Mothra insist the Bible is more violent than the Koran and that all violence should be condemned, but refuse to condemn the violence in nursery rhymes or discuss the causal link between scripture and violence.

My position is that there is a strong causal link between Islam and violence, that this link is far stronger in Islam than other religions (or indeed, a reversal), and that the quantity of violence is not a good measure of the extent to which a scripture actually causes violence.

Last point first. There is a lot of violence in modern movies. There is even violence in nursery rhymes. However, these do not cause terrorism or violence because they do not motivate people to follow their lead. Some even tell you not to try this at home. The whole point of religion on the other hand is to motivate people to modify not just their beliefs, but their behaviour. This can have a profound effect on an individual, and an even more profound effect on a society over a long period of time.

Judaism

Karnal wrote on Jun 13^th, 2017 at 10:48pm:


Lets start with a comparison of Judaism and Islam. It may be true (I have not checked, and the sources seem dubious at best, thanks Mothra and Greg) that the old testament has more violence in it. However, this largely takes the form of documenting rather than encouraging violence. There are also several other key aspects of Judaism that have a political and cultural effect on society. The key differences are:

1) Judaism is not a proselytising religion. Jewish "law" is for the Jews. The idea of imposing Judaism on others in a religious, political, cultural or military sense just does not make sense. This is why one of the dominant criticisms of Jews has been their insularity. In contrast, Islam is a proselytising religion that uses every political and legal trick available to impose religion on people.

2) The diaspora has been incorporated into the Jewish religious narrative, to the extent that Jews feel uncomfortable with the existence of Israel as a Jewish state. Many literally think it is going against God's wishes. Thus, not only is there an absence of a religious imperative to impose Judaism on non-Jews, there is also no religious imperative to impose Judaism on Jews in a political sense. Jewish doctrine indirectly calls for the separation of religion and state. In contrast, the natural state for Islam is an Islamic state, and many modern Muslims do see this as a religious imperative.

3) Exodus. Escape from slavery is a key aspect in Jewish religious identity and the foundation of the original nation of Israel. In contrast, Islam was founded and spread by the enslavement of non-Muslims, and it stuck with Islam until it was forcibly denied by non-Muslims.

4) Islam actually promotes wholesale violence.

These differences result in different behaviour of Jews individually and collectively. Israel is a good example of this. They have won several wars and seized large amounts of territory. They could have taken much more. If they had been Muslims, or communists, or French revolutionaries, or Romans, or just about any other militarily successful movement, they would have taken over the middle east and imposed their ways on others. Israel is an exception to this historical norm. They gave back most of the territory they won and despite their dramatic success, remained a very small country. This is also true of the historical nation of Israel. Israel is for the Jews, and it does not make sense to Jews to try to spread it and impose it on others.

Being a non-proselytising religion has a key strategic implication. A proselytising religion such as Islam can benefit from violent conflict so long as the converts gained outnumber the people killed in the process. For Judaism, this gives violent conflict no upside. Hence, Judaism survives by being militarily conservative. By getting along. Israel could have taken over the middle east, but Judaism would not spread as a result, and would largely come to an end in the middle east if the empire collapsed. The identification with the exodus story runs through both Judaism and Christianity, and no doubt contributed to the gradual ending of slavery in Europe following the collapse of the Roman Empire, which in turn lead to the eventual rise of liberal democracy, and Judeo-Christian society going back into the middle east and north Africa to bring an end to slavery in Islamic nations, rather than the other way round. Islam took over almost all of western civilisation in a century. Judaism has been around for millennia, has seen more than one Jewish state, but has never been at the core of an empire.

Christianity

Bobby. wrote on Jun 14^th, 2017 at 9:49pm:


Gandalf and Bobby and the main proponents of comparisons between Islam and Christianity. I am leaving out Greg and Mothra here as they are yet to formulate their comparison of violence levels in (presumably) the old testament into a cogent argument. Gandalf likes to point out the misogyny of Paul, however compared to the treatment of women in Islam (eg sexual slavery) Paul is a saint. Bobby defers to the old testament and often quotes Jesus' references to old testament law. He recently claimed that this means everything in the old testament still applies. However the verses are ambiguous at best and Bobby has since backtracked to saying he does not understand it, that there are contradictions, and that the contradictions mean there is nothing of value. No-one else seems to share his confusion, and the obvious way to interpret it is that where there are contradictions, the example and message of Jesus take precedent.

The key messages taught and demonstrated by Jesus are:

1) Love your enemy

2) Turn the other cheek

3) Forgive

These can be challenging messages to put into practice, and there is no shortage of Christians falling short of them. They are also revolutionary from a social perspective, and I believe are a key reason why modern liberal democracy arose, several times in parallel, in Christian nations. Democracy and Freedom are inherently fragile, as they provide a convenient mechanism to bring about their own demise. Hitler was elected to office. Muslims are promoting Islam under the protection of freedom of religion. Luckily for us, they are resilient for other reasons. These values are so revolutionary socially because they provide a mechanism for defusing family and tribal feuds and also provide an individual release from self-reinforcing and self destructive behaviours and mindsets.

They are also incompatible with much of the "eye for an eye" stuff in the old testament, and the hatered preached by Islam.

Another important message of Christianity, this time more explicit, is the separation of church and state - give unto Caeser. Again, Islam teaches the opposite and Muhammad demonstrated the opposite.

Islam

In contrast to the violence documented in the old testament, the Koran provides explicit instructions to go out and slaughter the infidel. Not in a single time and location, but until the end times, when even the rocks will tell Muslims to come and slaughter the Jews who are hiding behind them.

Chapter 9 for example:

http://www.ozpolitic.com/forum/YaBB.pl?num=1469837313

is slaughtering the infidel from start to finish. It is not a documentation of a slaughter, but a command to slaughter. Fight them in holy wars. Kill them. Beseige them. Ambush them. Punish them. Ban them. March forth against them. Proceed with Jihad. Take their money. This is what it actually says, repeatedly (also, wash your genitals with dust and water from urine and stools). The best Muslims are the ones who fight with their life and their wealth to kill the infidel. Fighting the infidel with your wealth in the name of Islam recieves a surprising degree of prominence, almost equal to fighting 'with your life'. The Muslims who shy away from fighting are inferior, unless they have a good excuse. Martyrdom and victory are the two best things.

In addition to explicitly promoting violence against non-Muslims, Islam created several new castes in what was until then a multicultural society. Muslims are on top. Jews and Christians are legally, socially, politically and morally inferior, as are women. Pagans are either Muslims or dead, or slaves. Jews and Christians can be enslaved also, and enslavement was a constant threat forcing them to put up with their inferior status in Muslim society. Enslavement  itself is a key tool for spreading Islam, and why Islam was so successful in spreading by the sword. Enemies captured in battle can be killed afterward, enslaved or ransomed back, depending on what is in the interest of the Islamic state at the time. Women in particular featured prominently among slaves, typically outnumbering men 2:1. They could earn their "freedom" by bearing their master a male offspring, however the offspring to a Muslim father is considered a Muslim. Male slaves were often castrated. Slaves could also gain their freedom by converting to Islam. Thus, Muhammad turned war and slavery into a recruitment tool.

It helped not just by recruiting converts to Islam. It also helped in recruiting Muslim men to the army. By allowing polygamy and lowering the status of women, Muhammad turned women into chattels. Young men could often not even talk to women they are not related to, and difficulty finding a wife was inevitable. The solution: join the army and capture a wife/sex slave in a foreign land, as well as spoils of war to support your family. The death penalty for apostasy still features prominently among the backwards beliefs held by modern Muslims because it is the final nail in the coffin of religious freedom. Together, these forces cemented Islam's grip on the lands they captured.

Christian Europe, despite being negatively influenced by Islam in several ways (invasion of Spain and reintroduction of slavery, depopulation of Italian coastline and slave raids along the rest of the coast and into eastern Europe, and being cut off from trade routes into the heart of western civilisation and beyond) eventually overtook the Muslim heartland of western civilisation to become wealthier, freer and democratic. This was almost universal. With the exception of Spain and Israel, the land captured by the original Caliphate stagnated and went from the most advanced civilisation on earth to the most backwards, violent and oppressive today. Islam is at the heart of that stagnation. The ideological strategies that made Islam so successful while the Caliphate was expanding militarily leave it moribund today.

The world we see today is not just an accident of history that happens to coincide with the rough geopolitical boundary between Islam and Christianity. The backwardness of the middle east and north Africa, the liberal democracies of Israel, Europe and the new world reflect the different natures of the belief systems that shaped the societies and still influence the attitudes and behaviour of people in those societies today. Even if you are not a Christian or a Muslim, if you live in Europe or the middle east then you grew up with and adopted a culture that has been shaped by those religions for generations.

Muhammad basically found everything that can go wrong with religion, wrapped it up into a book, called it the Koran, then set it loose on the world - all to get back at his family in Mecca for mistreating him. It is the ultimate hissy fit.

Quote:


Curious, aren't you?

YHVH.

Karnal wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 10:39pm:



Indeed - Jesus is mentioned many times in the Koran.

Why has his message of forgiveness been forgotten by Muslims?

Bobby. wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:25pm:

You should stick to commenting on stuff you actually understand Booby.

Grendel wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 11:20pm:



Do you understand it?

I'm honest - it makes no sense at all.

All you other Einsteins can claim you understand it but you don't.