Australian Politics Forum - Islam vs other religions

Karnal Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 95220 Gender:	Re: Islam vs other religions Reply #135 - Jun 20^th, 2017 at 11:19pm Come back tomorrow, FD.
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Auggie

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #136 - Jun 20^th, 2017 at 11:26pm

Frank wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 9:54pm:

Gandalf claims to be a socialist. I think Abu made vague references to Islamic economics having similarities with socialism, but I couldn't get anyone to elaborate. Slavery and socialism are mutually exclusive, and Muhammad made a lot of money as a trader and by seizing control of the Kaaba, which had been a lucrative source of income for his family, and then by taxing people and collecting spoils of war. I suspect they just trot the socialism line out to appeal to deluded hippies.

Socialism is a continuation of slavery, they are not mutually exclusive.
In slavery, the lord owns you, In socialism, the State does.
Under Islam, the Ummah owes you,under sharia. It will kill you if you leave, like an escaping slave. Islam does mean Submission. It's just another word for Slavery. Muslims are Allah's slaves.

Economically, Islam is the worst possible system, it is a recipe fr poverty, degradation, slavery, backwardness. It suppresses economic, social activity.

A curse. It is suitable only for an ever-aggressive, ever-expanding and plundering economic model. There is no room for that today. Islamic political economy is a curse, a toxic threat.

Even the abolition of compound interest?

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freediver

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #137 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 9:14am

Karnal, I asked if there was anything in the Bible itself saying it is the living word of God. You gave me a passage from revelations, which says not to alter this book. However, by "this book" it appears to mean Revelations, not the Bible, which was put together after the book of Revelations. By suggesting that what it says applies to the whole Bible, you are doing exactly what it says not to.

Quote:

Even the abolition of compound interest?

Really bad idea. One outcome was that only 'good' Muslims were able to get loans, because no-one had any incentive to loan money. Banks provide a valuable service. There is nothing wrong with getting paid for it.

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #138 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 9:30am

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 9:14am:

Karnal, I asked if there was anything in the Bible itself saying it is the living word of God. You gave me a passage from revelations, which says not to alter this book. However, by "this book" it appears to mean Revelations, not the Bible, which was put together after the book of Revelations. By suggesting that what it says applies to the whole Bible, you are doing exactly what it says not to.

Quote:

Even the abolition of compound interest?

Really bad idea. One outcome was that only 'good' Muslims were able to get loans, because no-one had any incentive to loan money. Banks provide a valuable fservice. There is nothing wrong with getting paid for it.

My link contains multiple quotes, FD. I'm not posting them because you're using this to distract from the real agenda here: slavery and Freeeedom.

If you refuse to reply, you will be charged with that most Musel of crimes:

Evasion.

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Grendel Gold Member Offline OzPolitic Posts: 28080 Gender:	Re: Islam vs other religions Reply #139 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 10:39am You should find a religion you can be part of and understand karnal, or become an agnostic or atheist and avoid making a fool of yourself on subjects you are clueless about.
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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #140 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 10:55am

freediver wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 12:41pm:

So you support Muhammad's genocide of the Jews based on 'speculation' that the Jews' allies intended genocide of the Muslims, which you presented as the Jews conspiring to commit genocide?

I don't think its unreasonable to execute for treason. Particularly in a time of war, and even more particularly when you have just barely seen off an enemy 10 thousand strong attempting to overrun your home city. It was an existential threat, and those who conspire with that threat - behind your back - shouldn't expect mercy when they are defeated and exposed. Harsh - yes, but it doesn't make one a genocidal maniac. I think even the US still has it on the books.

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Do you have any reason for this speculation?

10 thousand warriors - the largest army that had been seen at that time and place, attempting to overrun a city. You can join the dots FD.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
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Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #141 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 11:01am

Quote:

On the issue of slavery, what real rights or changes did Muhammad implement? The only real change I can see is that he ramped up slavery as a tool for compelling people to convert to Islam and for growing the empire. For something you consider inherently wrong, you are taking a remarkably generous approach to Muhammad's institutionalisation of slavery under Islamic law.

See this is you once again not bothering to read what I say on the matter. I carefully set out a fairly detailed answer to that exact question.

Why should I bother explaining if you're not bothered to listen FD?

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #142 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 11:41am

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 9:14am:

Really bad idea. One outcome was that only 'good' Muslims were able to get loans, because no-one had any incentive to loan money. Banks provide a valuable service. There is nothing wrong with getting paid for it.

Compound interest is not the only way banks can get paid for a service, so you are constructing a false dichotomy.

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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freediver

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #143 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:11pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 10:55am:

freediver wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 12:41pm:

So you support Muhammad's genocide of the Jews based on 'speculation' that the Jews' allies intended genocide of the Muslims, which you presented as the Jews conspiring to commit genocide?

I don't think its unreasonable to execute for treason. Particularly in a time of war, and even more particularly when you have just barely seen off an enemy 10 thousand strong attempting to overrun your home city. It was an existential threat, and those who conspire with that threat - behind your back - shouldn't expect mercy when they are defeated and exposed. Harsh - yes, but it doesn't make one a genocidal maniac.

Yes it does. Genocides don't happen in times of peace when everyone is feeling safe and secure Gandalf. You are an apologist for genocide. No wonder so many Muslims are up for a bit of jihad today.

Quote:

Quote:

Do you have any reason for this speculation?

10 thousand warriors - the largest army that had been seen at that time and place, attempting to overrun a city. You can join the dots FD.

Do you always equate war with genocide, or only when Muslims are involved? The Meccans wanted Muhammad to stop raiding caravans and murdering innocent traders. There is no evidence that they intended genocide, or that the Jews conspired to commit genocide. You made it up. You lied to justify Muhammad's genocide of the Jews.

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 11:41am:

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 9:14am:

Really bad idea. One outcome was that only 'good' Muslims were able to get loans, because no-one had any incentive to loan money. Banks provide a valuable service. There is nothing wrong with getting paid for it.

Compound interest is not the only way banks can get paid for a service, so you are constructing a false dichotomy.

So they charge the same amount, but call it something else?

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« Last Edit: Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:27pm by freediver »

People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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polite_gandalf Gold Member Offline Australian Politics Posts: 20027 Canberra Gender:	Re: Islam vs other religions Reply #144 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:21pm freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:11pm: The Meccans wanted Muhammad to stop raiding caravans and murdering innocent traders Ah yes, of course the Meccans (Quraysh) are the victims here.
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freediver

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #145 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:31pm

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:21pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:11pm:

The Meccans wanted Muhammad to stop raiding caravans and murdering innocent traders

Ah yes, of course the Meccans (Quraysh) are the victims here. Grin

Are you suggesting that the innocent traders that Muhammad murdered and robbed were not victims?

Are you going to invoke the mindless collective argument again Gandalf?

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People who can't distinguish between etymology and entomology bug me in ways I cannot put into words.

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Karnal

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #146 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:40pm

freediver wrote on Jun 16^th, 2017 at 9:19pm:

Escape from slavery is a key aspect in Jewish religious identity and the foundation of the original nation of Israel.

freediver wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 10:09pm:

I am just reading what it says Karnal. Try it yourself.

Grendel wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 12:38pm:

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

Put it in the Wiki, FD.

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polite_gandalf

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #147 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:45pm

freediver wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 1:31pm:

Are you suggesting that the innocent traders that Muhammad murdered and robbed were not victims?

no, I'm suggesting you are looking for any excuse to apologise for the Qurayza's treason and to pretend there wasn't just cause to punish them for their actions. Now you are introducing another, but well worn apology: excusing the Quraysh for the forced eviction of peaceful protesters from their homes and ceasing all their property - or pretending it didn't happen.

Did the Qurayza stab Muhammad in the back because they felt so terrible about the poor murdered and robbed traders? Thats a novel line - you should try that one. tsk tsk, yawn

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A resident Islam critic who claims to represent western values said:
Quote:

Outlawing the enemy's uniform - hijab, islamic beard - is not depriving one's own people of their freedoms.

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Auggie

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #148 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 2:54pm

Quote:

Really bad idea. One outcome was that only 'good' Muslims were able to get loans, because no-one had any incentive to loan money. Banks provide a valuable service. There is nothing wrong with getting paid for it.

Notice that I said 'compound interest', not 'simple interest'. Islamic financing allows for simple interest: i.e. if I want to buy a house that costs $500,000, then the back would buy the house, but I would pay back $700,000, therefore the bank makes $200,000 in profit.

Now, there are some Islamic banks in the UK who claim that they have Islamic financing by using fancy numbers and calculations, but the result is the same - the amount payable back to the bank is the same as normal financing. The point of Islamic financing is that THE TOTAL AMOUNT IS SUPPOSED TO BE CHEAPER, which is why it's better.

Of course, I acknowledge that in our economy, simple interest interest isn't viable; but I wanted to make that distinction.

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Frank

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Re: Islam vs other religions
Reply #149 - Jun 21^st, 2017 at 7:09pm

Auggie wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 11:26pm:

Frank wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 10:17pm:

freediver wrote on Jun 20^th, 2017 at 9:54pm:

Gandalf claims to be a socialist. I think Abu made vague references to Islamic economics having similarities with socialism, but I couldn't get anyone to elaborate. Slavery and socialism are mutually exclusive, and Muhammad made a lot of money as a trader and by seizing control of the Kaaba, which had been a lucrative source of income for his family, and then by taxing people and collecting spoils of war. I suspect they just trot the socialism line out to appeal to deluded hippies.

Socialism is a continuation of slavery, they are not mutually exclusive.
In slavery, the lord owns you, In socialism, the State does.
Under Islam, the Ummah owes you,under sharia. It will kill you if you leave, like an escaping slave. Islam does mean Submission. It's just another word for Slavery. Muslims are Allah's slaves.

Economically, Islam is the worst possible system, it is a recipe fr poverty, degradation, slavery, backwardness. It suppresses economic, social activity.

A curse. It is suitable only for an ever-aggressive, ever-expanding and plundering economic model. There is no room for that today. Islamic political economy is a curse, a toxic threat.

Even the abolition of compound interest?

Why not? Money is a commodity like any other. Should I let you use my money to enrich yourself without charging you that use?

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Estragon: I can’t go on like this.
Vladimir: That’s what you think.

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