Islamic Just War Theory

Apparently Islam only permits war for self defence. This came out of a discussion with Gandalf on chapter 9 of the Koran, which is basically slaughtering the infidel from start to finish. According to Gandalf, my mistake was to only quote the entire chapter. I left out the rest of the Koran, from which Gandalf has managed to extract a few quotes supporting his alternative interpretation. Gandalf thinks that the "only for self defence" theory is entirely consistent with Muhammad's behaviour, because there was an occasion when Muhammad sought peace. Here is Gandalf using the Life Of Brian to explain this:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 28^th, 2017 at 10:21am:


The Koran does not actually say that war should only be for self defence. These are the verses Gandalf has come up with:

polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 21^st, 2017 at 12:37pm:


polite_gandalf wrote on Jun 26^th, 2017 at 1:24pm:


Despite Gandalf's insistence, none of these verses state that war is only permitted in self defence. In fact they state the opposite. Gandalf's first example, verse 4 from chapter 9, is the only one to place any limitation on slaughtering the infidel - where Muslims have a peace treaty with them. Even here, there is plenty of room provided to take exception: "and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor have supported anyone against you". This is provided as a way for Muslims to get out of a peace treaty and continue slaughtering the infidel, yet Gandalf manages to interpret it as limiting war to self defence. Chapter 9 starts with a broad command to kill the infidel wherever Muslims find them, unless Muslims have a peace treaty with them that the Muslims consider to still be valid.

Good to see you opening up discussion, FD.

Are you taking questions yet?

freediver wrote on Jul 1^st, 2017 at 11:37am:


As to the highlighted part - in the case of you fighting in self defense, wouldn't you agree this is the only possible way to achieve peace - by the oppressors ceasing the oppression?

FD do you acknowledge that the Quran states explicitly on several occassions to cease fighting if the enemy ceases oppressing? I'm not sure what more evidence you need to conclude that warfare in the Quran is a just war (self defense) doctrine. Yes there are embellishments such as mentioning those who mock - but there is no evidence to suggest that in itself is justification for waging war against and killing infidels. The clear and unambiguous commands to stop fighting when oppression stops, and to stop fighting when overtures of peace are made by the aggressors - in addition to the critically important commands for freedom in belief in 2:256 and 18:29 (no compulsion in religion + whoever so wills let him disbelieve) - paints an abundantly clear message that fighting is not against difference of personal beliefs, but against oppression against muslims. 

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 12:38pm:


Of course - if you ignore the second half of the ayat beginning with "but"

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:


The second condition supersedes the first. Thats what happens when you insert the word "but" followed by a qualifying condition. Your insistence that the first condition is to be pursued no matter what makes no sense. Why put the qualifier in at all? Its like telling your kid "Eat all your vegetables - but if it makes you feel sick, then don't" - and then insisting somehow there is no situation in which he can't eat his vegetables.

2:193:

Fight them until there is no [more] fitnah and [until] worship is [acknowledged to be] for Allah . But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

The only reasonable way to interpret this ayah is that you fight until Islam prevails over the land while-ever the enemy refuses to make peace and/or stop their oppression. Otherwise, you must stop as soon as the enemy stops fighting you.

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 7:18pm:


oh look, we have the first signs of FD conceding a point 

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 9:32pm:


No, it says exactly what it says.

But if they cease, then there is to be no aggression except against the oppressors.

Is that still a little too cryptic for you?

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 9:32pm:


Ah - you can't deny the Quran stipulates to fight against oppression (reasonable in anyone's book), so the next step is to claim that Quranic oppression doesn't really mean oppression.

Unfortunately, you are out of luck. The very verse you quote in the OP gives examples of oppression - such as kicking you out of your house, and preventing you from worshipping. Would you agree that these things are indeed oppression?

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 9:32pm:


The conditions are clearly set in other verses I have already referenced. Surah 9 even alludes to them again.

FD, neither of the verses that you have quoted explain WHY they are fighting; it only explains WHO they are fighting. Therefore the historical background must be taken into consideration.

freediver wrote on Jul 5^th, 2017 at 10:04pm:


Where does it say the word 'because'?

If I say: "Fight the Nazis wherever you find them...." Does this indicate why I'm fighting Nazis?